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Physician Associate - a new role in NHS?
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345rty many places have 'assistants' to doctors but they are generally not people who did the 'physician associates' course. This physician assistant course was a role made in 2006 and offered by five universities but it has not really caught on as two of the five universities that started the course (Hertfordshire, Wolverhampton) have already closed it. Many places have 'assistants' that do only procedures cheaper which is one reason it hasnt taken on. For example, at Addenbrookes they have 'physician assistants' who were trained only to do procedures (catheter, cannula, bloods, ABG etc) but they were trained very quickly on site with several months in house and were significantly cheaper. They earn less than 20k/year and many were graduates who used this as work experience prior to going into medicine. In many places there are 'site practitioners' who were just phlebotomist who were sent on a two day cannula course and you can bleep them to do cannulas for you. In many hospitals now the nurses do the bloods. In my AAU they trained healthcare assistants to do bloods and cannulas.
Another reason you have eluded to is that these physician associates cannot prescribe and are depedent. Nurse specialists, however, are independent and can prescribe. Since PA role is dependent they cannot work out of hours as there are no consultants around so this again limits their use especially when somewhere can employ a nurse specialist that can work any hours. Many places increasingly employ nurses in hospital at night teams that do ward cover. The standard of most of the out of hour nurses that man the 'Hospital at night' are generally better than FY1s. The 'Critical care outreach' was the most impressive and their training can be very high. Certainly when I was in my DGH, I asked my registrar one day why we werent getting any more crash calls, it was because the critical care outreach nurse had been made into a 24 hour service and the nurses bleeped them for very sick patients and they got seen straight away, this definitely decreased the crash calls we had and made the biggest noticeable impact to my working life.
Another reason you have eluded to is that these physician associates cannot prescribe and are depedent. Nurse specialists, however, are independent and can prescribe. Since PA role is dependent they cannot work out of hours as there are no consultants around so this again limits their use especially when somewhere can employ a nurse specialist that can work any hours. Many places increasingly employ nurses in hospital at night teams that do ward cover. The standard of most of the out of hour nurses that man the 'Hospital at night' are generally better than FY1s. The 'Critical care outreach' was the most impressive and their training can be very high. Certainly when I was in my DGH, I asked my registrar one day why we werent getting any more crash calls, it was because the critical care outreach nurse had been made into a 24 hour service and the nurses bleeped them for very sick patients and they got seen straight away, this definitely decreased the crash calls we had and made the biggest noticeable impact to my working life.
(edited 9 years ago)
Hello,
I could use your thoughts and help please. I am currently in the process of applying to Grad Medical school, however, I am looking for a plan B in case I don't succeed. Are there any PAs that could give me their feedback on what the job is like? What are the advantages\limitations? Which schools offer a good degree in the UK?
Thank you
I could use your thoughts and help please. I am currently in the process of applying to Grad Medical school, however, I am looking for a plan B in case I don't succeed. Are there any PAs that could give me their feedback on what the job is like? What are the advantages\limitations? Which schools offer a good degree in the UK?
Thank you
Original post by firkin
who ever is thinking of doing this course, PLEASE DO NOT. this course was missold to me and my fellow colleagues. the reality of it was , it was disorganised, hardly any good lectures took place, the placements were a waste where we were promised some teaching, and never got any. we forked out money, and got nothing back. the university even lied to the hospitals about what had been covered. in some hospitals the placements were awful, where students did nothing. even when we tried to be proactive and ask our gp if we could shadow him, he refused.
Hi Firkin, do you mind saying at which UK university you completed your PA course?
Thanks!
Original post by Muzima
Has anyone been to the selection day at St Georges? How do I prepare for it? What does it consisit of? Thanks
How did your selection day go? I have been invited to a selection day at Worcester, it seems pretty gruelling!
Original post by eliot.1
Hello,
I could use your thoughts and help please. I am currently in the process of applying to Grad Medical school, however, I am looking for a plan B in case I don't succeed. Are there any PAs that could give me their feedback on what the job is like? What are the advantages\limitations? Which schools offer a good degree in the UK?
Thank you
I could use your thoughts and help please. I am currently in the process of applying to Grad Medical school, however, I am looking for a plan B in case I don't succeed. Are there any PAs that could give me their feedback on what the job is like? What are the advantages\limitations? Which schools offer a good degree in the UK?
Thank you
People pretty much said that if you want to become a doctor becoming a PA is not a good idea. Why not keep on apply to grad med school till you get in?
Lily Bishop have you been to the selection day yet? I went to a selection day in February was offered a place. It is tiring however the good thing is you are not competing against the other candidates they are just trying to discover whether you are suitable. The main thing I would say is think about what you asked, don't rush to answer don't worry about thinking whether it is what they want to hear. It is more about how you explain things. Don't panic. The main thing to prep is why do you want to be a PA and to have a good understanding of how the role fits into the NHS
Hello,
The University of Leeds commences it's PA programme in September 2015, the admissions process has just commenced. We are working from within the Medical School and accessing many of their lectures, modules and facilities. The admission process goes live next week and if you google us you will get a bit more detail. We're looking for 2.2 in a related subject and IELTS of 7.5. We have some ideas and support for funding and internship. Contact us? @UniLeedsPA
The University of Leeds commences it's PA programme in September 2015, the admissions process has just commenced. We are working from within the Medical School and accessing many of their lectures, modules and facilities. The admission process goes live next week and if you google us you will get a bit more detail. We're looking for 2.2 in a related subject and IELTS of 7.5. We have some ideas and support for funding and internship. Contact us? @UniLeedsPA
Original post by Wonderful Life
Lily Bishop have you been to the selection day yet? I went to a selection day in February was offered a place. It is tiring however the good thing is you are not competing against the other candidates they are just trying to discover whether you are suitable. The main thing I would say is think about what you asked, don't rush to answer don't worry about thinking whether it is what they want to hear. It is more about how you explain things. Don't panic. The main thing to prep is why do you want to be a PA and to have a good understanding of how the role fits into the NHS
I received a rejection letter from the university of worcester yesterday and it has discouraged me completely. I did not fully understand the reasons why because i thought i did good. They mentioned i need to work on professional values and awareness of self and risk. I have been invited to a selection day in st George's though and now i'm trying to make sure i get this right. Don't know how really
Original post by aakabogu
I received a rejection letter from the university of worcester yesterday and it has discouraged me completely. I did not fully understand the reasons why because i thought i did good. They mentioned i need to work on professional values and awareness of self and risk. I have been invited to a selection day in st George's though and now i'm trying to make sure i get this right. Don't know how really
Sorry I haven't replied sooner, have you been to the selection day at St. Georges?
Firstly it is always horrible receiving rejection letters. I remember when I applied to go to Uni Bath wrote to me rejecting me saying they would not consider me and nor would any other university, I ended up going to the University of Bristol as they were happy to take me.
Try to remember that Worcester saw something in you as does St. George as both called you to sellection day's. Also Worcester has not said you are unsuitable, they said you needed to work on your professional values and awareness of self and risk so I supect they would consider you in the future if you applied again. Have you recently in the lass year or so finished Uni or have you been working for a long time. Professional values and awareness of self and risk may in part come through life experience.
Even if you don't get on a course this year it is not the end of world try and get to go in for a day to shadow a PA.
So what would I understand as professional values, your integrity, so doing the right thing despite the potential cost to you this also ties in with awareness of self and risk. Professional values are about doing the job to the best of your ability, being part of a team, also as a PA not overstepping your role as you will always be under the supervision of a G.P. or consultant so knowing when to get help. Professional values are about not bringing your place of work in to disripute. Awareness of self is also how you react being able to remain polite even when being shouted at, putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Understanding that other peoples reactions also flow from the way we react, so if we are calm and apologetic sometimes we can diffuse the situation. I work in a school and we had restraint and desculation training, we looked at how we behave with students. If we lecture them, don't give them enough personal space and back them into a wall they are more likely to lash out and hit us so in that situation our behaviour poses a risk to ourselves.
Finally there are more courses starting so get more experience and apply again.
Hope this helps
Original post by aakabogu
I received a rejection letter from the university of worcester yesterday and it has discouraged me completely. I did not fully understand the reasons why because i thought i did good. They mentioned i need to work on professional values and awareness of self and risk. I have been invited to a selection day in st George's though and now i'm trying to make sure i get this right. Don't know how really
Sorry I haven't replied sooner, have you been to the selection day at St. Georges?
Firstly it is always horrible receiving rejection letters. I remember when I applied to go to Uni Bath wrote to me rejecting me saying they would not consider me and nor would any other university, I ended up going to the University of Bristol as they were happy to take me.
Try to remember that Worcester saw something in you as does St. George as both called you to sellection day's. Also Worcester has not said you are unsuitable, they said you needed to work on your professional values and awareness of self and risk so I supect they would consider you in the future if you applied again. Have you recently in the lass year or so finished Uni or have you been working for a long time. Professional values and awareness of self and risk may in part come through life experience.
Even if you don't get on a course this year it is not the end of world try and get to go in for a day to shadow a PA.
So what would I understand as professional values, your integrity, so doing the right thing despite the potential cost to you this also ties in with awareness of self and risk. Professional values are about doing the job to the best of your ability, being part of a team, also as a PA not overstepping your role as you will always be under the supervision of a G.P. or consultant so knowing when to get help. Professional values are about not bringing your place of work in to disripute. Awareness of self is also how you react being able to remain polite even when being shouted at, putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Understanding that other peoples reactions also flow from the way we react, so if we are calm and apologetic sometimes we can diffuse the situation. I work in a school and we had restraint and desculation training, we looked at how we behave with students. If we lecture them, don't give them enough personal space and back them into a wall they are more likely to lash out and hit us so in that situation our behaviour poses a risk to ourselves.
Finally there are more courses starting so get more experience and apply again.
Hope this helps
Original post by Wonderful Life
Sorry I haven't replied sooner, have you been to the selection day at St. Georges?
Firstly it is always horrible receiving rejection letters. I remember when I applied to go to Uni Bath wrote to me rejecting me saying they would not consider me and nor would any other university, I ended up going to the University of Bristol as they were happy to take me.
Try to remember that Worcester saw something in you as does St. George as both called you to sellection day's. Also Worcester has not said you are unsuitable, they said you needed to work on your professional values and awareness of self and risk so I supect they would consider you in the future if you applied again. Have you recently in the lass year or so finished Uni or have you been working for a long time. Professional values and awareness of self and risk may in part come through life experience.
Even if you don't get on a course this year it is not the end of world try and get to go in for a day to shadow a PA.
So what would I understand as professional values, your integrity, so doing the right thing despite the potential cost to you this also ties in with awareness of self and risk. Professional values are about doing the job to the best of your ability, being part of a team, also as a PA not overstepping your role as you will always be under the supervision of a G.P. or consultant so knowing when to get help. Professional values are about not bringing your place of work in to disripute. Awareness of self is also how you react being able to remain polite even when being shouted at, putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Understanding that other peoples reactions also flow from the way we react, so if we are calm and apologetic sometimes we can diffuse the situation. I work in a school and we had restraint and desculation training, we looked at how we behave with students. If we lecture them, don't give them enough personal space and back them into a wall they are more likely to lash out and hit us so in that situation our behaviour poses a risk to ourselves.
Finally there are more courses starting so get more experience and apply again.
Hope this helps
Firstly it is always horrible receiving rejection letters. I remember when I applied to go to Uni Bath wrote to me rejecting me saying they would not consider me and nor would any other university, I ended up going to the University of Bristol as they were happy to take me.
Try to remember that Worcester saw something in you as does St. George as both called you to sellection day's. Also Worcester has not said you are unsuitable, they said you needed to work on your professional values and awareness of self and risk so I supect they would consider you in the future if you applied again. Have you recently in the lass year or so finished Uni or have you been working for a long time. Professional values and awareness of self and risk may in part come through life experience.
Even if you don't get on a course this year it is not the end of world try and get to go in for a day to shadow a PA.
So what would I understand as professional values, your integrity, so doing the right thing despite the potential cost to you this also ties in with awareness of self and risk. Professional values are about doing the job to the best of your ability, being part of a team, also as a PA not overstepping your role as you will always be under the supervision of a G.P. or consultant so knowing when to get help. Professional values are about not bringing your place of work in to disripute. Awareness of self is also how you react being able to remain polite even when being shouted at, putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Understanding that other peoples reactions also flow from the way we react, so if we are calm and apologetic sometimes we can diffuse the situation. I work in a school and we had restraint and desculation training, we looked at how we behave with students. If we lecture them, don't give them enough personal space and back them into a wall they are more likely to lash out and hit us so in that situation our behaviour poses a risk to ourselves.
Finally there are more courses starting so get more experience and apply again.
Hope this helps
Thank you so much for your reply, i haven't been to the selection day yet, so this came in good time. The scenarios Worcester posed during the selection process resonates with most of the instances you mentioned. It is much clearer to me now
I am currently writing my final undergraduate exams and i work part time as a care and support worker. i feel much more confident now and i'm looking forward to the interview in st George's.
Original post by Leeds PAs
Absolutely agree with Wonderful Life, our application packs are available today and we also give guidance on writing your personal statement. Good luck @unileedspa
The course at Leeds looks really good so I would encourage people to consider applying there.
Original post by aakabogu
Thank you so much for your reply, i haven't been to the selection day yet, so this came in good time. The scenarios Worcester posed during the selection process resonates with most of the instances you mentioned. It is much clearer to me now
I am currently writing my final undergraduate exams and i work part time as a care and support worker. i feel much more confident now and i'm looking forward to the interview in st George's.
I am currently writing my final undergraduate exams and i work part time as a care and support worker. i feel much more confident now and i'm looking forward to the interview in st George's.
I am really glad you are feeling more confident. You have a lot of good experience having worked part time as a care and support worker.
It is not easy to juggle finals and applying for courses so do not be too hard on yourself.
I would also say if things don't pan out consider working for a year or even a bit longer get more experience under your belt.
Anyway Good Luck with your interview at St. George's
Original post by Leeds PAs
Absolutely agree with Wonderful Life, our application packs are available today and we also give guidance on writing your personal statement. Good luck @unileedspa
I have noticed on the Leeds website you have missed off two Uni's which are going to be running PA courses Anglia Ruskin University and the University of Reading.
I don't really see what a PA adds that a Nurse Prac can't. My trust has Nurse Pracs available on various night shifts who will triage calls for the juniors, do simple jobs (bloods, IVT, cannulas, basic prescribing) and do initial reviews of people who's obs are starting to go off.
Most of these NPs are fantastic within their scope, and know when they need to get a doctor involved.
If the point of a PA is to alleviate workload on junior docs and add a constant presence in a department where juniors are continually rotating through, that's fine, but i don't see why they wouldn't just use NPs for that instead.
As far as i can see there is no advantage to having a doctor+PA on the ward vs a doctor+NP.
Most of these NPs are fantastic within their scope, and know when they need to get a doctor involved.
If the point of a PA is to alleviate workload on junior docs and add a constant presence in a department where juniors are continually rotating through, that's fine, but i don't see why they wouldn't just use NPs for that instead.
As far as i can see there is no advantage to having a doctor+PA on the ward vs a doctor+NP.
Original post by hoonosewot
I don't really see what a PA adds that a Nurse Prac can't. My trust has Nurse Pracs available on various night shifts who will triage calls for the juniors, do simple jobs (bloods, IVT, cannulas, basic prescribing) and do initial reviews of people who's obs are starting to go off.
Most of these NPs are fantastic within their scope, and know when they need to get a doctor involved.
If the point of a PA is to alleviate workload on junior docs and add a constant presence in a department where juniors are continually rotating through, that's fine, but i don't see why they wouldn't just use NPs for that instead.
As far as i can see there is no advantage to having a doctor+PA on the ward vs a doctor+NP.
Most of these NPs are fantastic within their scope, and know when they need to get a doctor involved.
If the point of a PA is to alleviate workload on junior docs and add a constant presence in a department where juniors are continually rotating through, that's fine, but i don't see why they wouldn't just use NPs for that instead.
As far as i can see there is no advantage to having a doctor+PA on the ward vs a doctor+NP.
Yes, I think that is the point. It's essentially another set of hands to deal with the labour of running a ward at ground level.
Presumably it's cheaper to produce PAs and more of them. NPs are pretty expensive and, in my experience, have more decision making ability (e.g. specialist cardiac nurses dealing with ACS, DC cardioversion etc). If you have an NP as a permanent ward fixture, you take a relatively independent practitioner out of circulation. I also don't think there are enough NPs for this purpose.
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