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Do you think we should abolish private schools?
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Original post by nulli tertius
As the canniest political operator (this is a euphemism for couldn't lie straight in a coffin) since WWII, Harold Wilson, said "politics is the art of the possible".
However the art of dismantling the other side's policy is being lost from politics. Robin Cook was one of the last on the Labour side but during the Tories' long years of opposition between 1997-2010 there was no Conservative politician who was consistently able to show that the government's policy couldn't work.
I have some hopes for the Scots. Salmond's independence policy is suffering a death of a thousand reality checks.
The opposition to Gove's free schools and academies was entirely ideological but their real weakness was always that the kids were given the keys to the sweetie cupboard. Even in Derby, where one initially thought the problem was religious, it turns out that hands were in tills and snouts in troughs. Yet no opposition politician broke the policy on the practicalities of delivery.
However the art of dismantling the other side's policy is being lost from politics. Robin Cook was one of the last on the Labour side but during the Tories' long years of opposition between 1997-2010 there was no Conservative politician who was consistently able to show that the government's policy couldn't work.
I have some hopes for the Scots. Salmond's independence policy is suffering a death of a thousand reality checks.
The opposition to Gove's free schools and academies was entirely ideological but their real weakness was always that the kids were given the keys to the sweetie cupboard. Even in Derby, where one initially thought the problem was religious, it turns out that hands were in tills and snouts in troughs. Yet no opposition politician broke the policy on the practicalities of delivery.
Have you read FE's maiden recently? As a member of the most benighted Tory return ever he did a bloody good job of holding the government to account. I've never read anything so long which held my interest so tightly.
Do you have an opinion on free schools, to distract the thread only slightly?
Heck, I'll put my scene back in. I was rather proud (even if that was at 7am after several coffees).
Spoiler
(edited 10 years ago)
Never, private school was the best thing that happened to me!
I have no idea why anyone would want to abolish them! People have the right to spend their money on getting their kids privately educated, if they so wish.
It seems to me like it's the state-schooled people being bitter and unhappy that other people are getting someone better than what they had/what they can't afford.
And I say this as someone who has been to state schools all her life
It seems to me like it's the state-schooled people being bitter and unhappy that other people are getting someone better than what they had/what they can't afford.
And I say this as someone who has been to state schools all her life
Parents choosing to give their child the best possbile education they can is not something I think should be a problem, though I hope one day that choice will not be one that is only open to those with thousands of pounds a year to spend upon that education.
However, there comes an issue when it is not just the education you received at private school that aids you in life but the mere fact you attended. This is a problem in that it prevents equality of opportunity even in a world where state schools are perfect, that there exists an Old Boy/Girl network that excudes those of equal or greater merit simply because they didn't go to a particular kind of school.
Take for example the Bar, a very prestigious profession. For the top end of the Bar Oxbridge is a must pretty much, fair enough it is where the academic elite tend to graviatate and is open to to anyone with the
grades.
I can't find Cam's stats but at Oxford for Law, probably the most common qulification for a junior barrister to hold on various stats such as the Bar barometer, state to private ratio is 90:51.
Yet, when we look at the last 'Rising Stars of the Bar' to be published which included the school and university they attended 7 out of 10 of those in the list attended private schools, for the year before it was 9 out of 10.
That to me seems somewhat flawed. Statistically nearly two thirds of those with the necessary qualifications (assuming privately educated students don't do massively better once at Oxford, which seems unlikely) are state educated, but an average of 80% of those at the top of the profession which most demands those qualifications are privately schooled. I'm not saying there is some kind of old school tie bias, but it certainly suggests it's a strong possibility.
In terms of how you stop this I'm not sure, logically parents coughing up over 30k a year in some cases want more than just 'we'll do our best' they want guarantees, and an OB network is a good way to help provide that, but I think it something that needs to be looked at.
However, there comes an issue when it is not just the education you received at private school that aids you in life but the mere fact you attended. This is a problem in that it prevents equality of opportunity even in a world where state schools are perfect, that there exists an Old Boy/Girl network that excudes those of equal or greater merit simply because they didn't go to a particular kind of school.
Take for example the Bar, a very prestigious profession. For the top end of the Bar Oxbridge is a must pretty much, fair enough it is where the academic elite tend to graviatate and is open to to anyone with the
grades.
I can't find Cam's stats but at Oxford for Law, probably the most common qulification for a junior barrister to hold on various stats such as the Bar barometer, state to private ratio is 90:51.
Yet, when we look at the last 'Rising Stars of the Bar' to be published which included the school and university they attended 7 out of 10 of those in the list attended private schools, for the year before it was 9 out of 10.
That to me seems somewhat flawed. Statistically nearly two thirds of those with the necessary qualifications (assuming privately educated students don't do massively better once at Oxford, which seems unlikely) are state educated, but an average of 80% of those at the top of the profession which most demands those qualifications are privately schooled. I'm not saying there is some kind of old school tie bias, but it certainly suggests it's a strong possibility.
In terms of how you stop this I'm not sure, logically parents coughing up over 30k a year in some cases want more than just 'we'll do our best' they want guarantees, and an OB network is a good way to help provide that, but I think it something that needs to be looked at.
(edited 10 years ago)
How on earth can people agree with private schooling? It's beyond belief.
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Limebuddhist
Everyone is saying 'what good would abolishing private schools be for getting better overall education?'
You don't seem to understand that the best teachers will be drawn to private schools because they pay the most. If there were no private schools good teachers would be spread across the board, giving everyone better opportunities
You don't seem to understand that the best teachers will be drawn to private schools because they pay the most. If there were no private schools good teachers would be spread across the board, giving everyone better opportunities
The best teachers would be spread very thinly in that case. It'd result in an absolutely minuscule improvement for state schools, which most people would barely notice, and a catastrophic decline in standards for the ex-private schools. Is it really worth it for the sake of equality?
Original post by Arbolus
The best teachers would be spread very thinly in that case. It'd result in an absolutely minuscule improvement for state schools, which most people would barely notice, and a catastrophic decline in standards for the ex-private schools. Is it really worth it for the sake of equality?
Also, ignores the fact plenty of the best teachers don't teach in private at the moment.
Both my parents are pretty good teachers, I think anyway, and they both feel (or felt, Dad's a head so doesn't teach much) that it was much more rewarding to genuinely change the life prospects of a few kids than to give a bit of a boost to lots kids who are likely to do well with or without your help.
The best teacher I've ever had had the same approach, she was proud that I did well, but as she said 'you're middle class, have educated parents and a stable family background, everything's geared for you to do well whether I'm here or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud you have done well, but it's not the same feeling'.
Original post by ChemistryChic
How on earth can people agree with private schooling? It's beyond belief.
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Inverse snobbery. I've been attending state schools all my life and I went to one of the worst High schools in UK. Abolishing private schools will do nothing, but drag the education system down. Like others have said abolishing private schools won't change anything except make more people worse off.
Original post by ChemistryChic
How on earth can people agree with private schooling? It's beyond belief.
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Urm we don't live in communist China. Abolishing private schools to totally uncapitalistic. If we started banning private enterprise where will it stop? Will we start banning private health business, such as Bupa, because people treated there receive a better standard of care and can possible live longer than people treated on the NHS. If we apply your silly equality policy private enterprise, the key of a capitalistic society will cease to flourish.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by sevchenko
Urm we don't live in communist China. Abolishing private schools to totally uncapitalistic. If we started banning private enterprise where will it stop? Will we start banning private health business, such as Bupa, because people treated there receive a better standard of care and can possible live longer than people treated on the NHS. If we apply your silly equality policy private enterprise, the key of a capitalistic society will cease to flourish.
Illiberal would be a better description. The vast majority of private schools are charities, they are not run to make a profit for the owner(s) or shareholders.
No. I agree the system could do with reforming but why flood state schools with the private school students?
Original post by Le Nombre
Illiberal would be a better description. The vast majority of private schools are charities, they are not run to make a profit for the owner(s) or shareholders.
That's a fair point which I accept. I'm talking in theory tho, If someone wants to establish a private enterprise in schooling for any reason then they should be allowed. Capitalism thrives is all about a diverse market for consumers.
I think the issue really is the standard of state schools and the way they are expected to deliver an education.
I think we need a system like Germany's, with a divide between academic and vocational skills, so that schools can deliver the education that makes the most of an individual's talents and better addresses their needs.
If we delivered a system like this, many parents who currently send their kids to private school would send them to a state school instead, if they could comfortably believe that the kids would get as good an education there. Of course, there would still be some demand for private schools, but it would be smaller.
Having done some work experience in state and private schools, I know that if I were to go into teaching I would definitely rather teach at a private school as things stand. The kids there appreciate their education to a much greater extent, want to learn, and aren't interrupted by unruly kids who demand all of a teacher's attention.
I think we need a system like Germany's, with a divide between academic and vocational skills, so that schools can deliver the education that makes the most of an individual's talents and better addresses their needs.
If we delivered a system like this, many parents who currently send their kids to private school would send them to a state school instead, if they could comfortably believe that the kids would get as good an education there. Of course, there would still be some demand for private schools, but it would be smaller.
Having done some work experience in state and private schools, I know that if I were to go into teaching I would definitely rather teach at a private school as things stand. The kids there appreciate their education to a much greater extent, want to learn, and aren't interrupted by unruly kids who demand all of a teacher's attention.
Original post by sevchenko
That's a fair point which I accept. I'm talking in theory tho, If someone wants to establish a private enterprise in schooling for any reason then they should be allowed. Capitalism thrives is all about a diverse market for consumers.
True, but applying that thinking to real life fifty of the biggest name private schools in the country shouldn't even be open. Banning private schools won't help solve that, but the current system undoubtedly has significant flaws, not least the existence of things such as the HMC.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1502603/Private-schools-found-guilty-over-fee-cartel.html
Original post by ChemistryChic
How on earth can people agree with private schooling? It's beyond belief. <br />
<br />
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education. <br />
<br />
<br />
<font size="1"><a href="http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/app" target="_blank">Posted from TSR Mobile</a></font>
<br />
No child should be disadvantaged because their parents did not have the financial means necessary to see them through private education. <br />
<br />
<br />
<font size="1"><a href="http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/app" target="_blank">Posted from TSR Mobile</a></font>
<br />
Also, no child should be disadvantaged because other people can't afford what they can
Sometimes it seems that the very people who decry the 'class-divide' in this country are the most classist amongst us.
We have a situation where some children are able to experience a very good education, whereas others get a far more average or poor education. The idea that the best thing for society is to remove the opportunity for many children to experience the best eduction is ludicrous. It is justified by the idea that it is the 'rich' children who get lucky, whereas 'poor' children have to make do. This, they say, entrenches inequality and perpetuates the class-divide. Why should a rich child get something a poor child cannot? This logic only works if you assign a class to a child from birth. It is the thinking of class hatred.
Just think, if we had the same number of the same quality of schools, but admission to each was completely random, far fewer people would have a problem with it. But is this really any fairer than the randomness of birth?
To me, a child is a child, no matter who their parents are. I want the largest number of children to experience the best education possible. Private schools, with the generally high quality of eduction they provide, contribute towards this aim. It is unfortunate that not everyone can experience so good an education, but to remove private schools would help precisely no one.
We have a situation where some children are able to experience a very good education, whereas others get a far more average or poor education. The idea that the best thing for society is to remove the opportunity for many children to experience the best eduction is ludicrous. It is justified by the idea that it is the 'rich' children who get lucky, whereas 'poor' children have to make do. This, they say, entrenches inequality and perpetuates the class-divide. Why should a rich child get something a poor child cannot? This logic only works if you assign a class to a child from birth. It is the thinking of class hatred.
Just think, if we had the same number of the same quality of schools, but admission to each was completely random, far fewer people would have a problem with it. But is this really any fairer than the randomness of birth?
To me, a child is a child, no matter who their parents are. I want the largest number of children to experience the best education possible. Private schools, with the generally high quality of eduction they provide, contribute towards this aim. It is unfortunate that not everyone can experience so good an education, but to remove private schools would help precisely no one.
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