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Is Mathematics at Cambridge the hardest undergraduate degree in the world?

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Reply 80
Original post by Brit_Miller
Actually, (only in my opinion) I bet that any undergrad doing maths at a top institute like Oxbridge would do very well. Writing is a hell of a lot easier than understanding some of the abstract topics in maths. That really makes you think.


"Any". Yea, you'd lose a lot.
Reply 81
Original post by Arieisit
So then what would you say is more abstract than Pure Mathematics?

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What do you define as abstract?
Original post by danny111
"Any". Yea, you'd lose a lot.


Any good undergrad. You're picking on a point, but missing the essence.
Reply 83
Original post by zxh800
You'd be surprised actually. I'm an Economist at Camb and first year we're forced to do essay papers. A lot of the more Mathematical minded guys (who wouldn't look out of place doing Maths) really struggle in the essay papers. They get the high 1sts in the Maths and theoretical papers but 2.2s in the Economic History and Politics papers.


And if these people actually bothered to think outside their comfort zone, they might realize this.
Reply 84
Original post by Brit_Miller
Any good undergrad. You're picking on a point, but missing the essence.


The point being you are wrong?
Original post by Mike_Ross
I agree with this. You can interpret a text however you wish and back it up with subjective analysis - analysing is exactly what mathematicians learn to do. The difference being that with maths, you analyse to discover a truth, whereas with an essay based subject, you analyse to portray your version of the truth.

Obviously I'm speaking very generally here but I think that that's true most of the time.


More eloquently put than me, but that's the point I was trying to make.There is real intelligence in being able to understand something like complex analysis, whereas something like writing a piece on Shakespeare is just analysing a text. I feel a person that can understand complex mathematical concepts can probably adjust to most other subjects.
Original post by danny111
The point being you are wrong?


About? If you want to argue something, you should probably make it clear.
Reply 87
Original post by Brit_Miller
About? If you want to argue something, you should probably make it clear.


Most people I know that are good at maths modules struggle to get good grades in essay subjects. You said you think you can just take any good maths student and he will do well in an essay based subject.

The only thing you are right about is that he is likely to do better relatively (if he swaps with someone).
Original post by danny111
The only thing you are right about is that he is likely to do better relatively (if he swaps with someone).


That's my point. :smile:
Reply 89
Original post by Brit_Miller
That's my point. :smile:


How does that prove anything? In regards to maths being the hardest course you can take?
Reply 90
Original post by danny111
What do you define as abstract?


I didn't know that the definition of abstraction can be interpreted in more than one ways academically.

But since you need to see a definition here is one (from the dictionary): abstract -The theoretical way of looking at things; something that exists only in idealized form.

Quite frankly, your argumentative skills reflect those of someone that delves deep into essay type subjects.

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Original post by danny111
How does that prove anything? In regards to maths being the hardest course you can take?


I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was just saying that I personally think an accomplished mathematician would probably do well at most academic (including essay based) subjects, in reply to you previous message.
Reply 92
Original post by Arieisit
I didn't know that the definition of abstraction can be interpreted in more than one ways academically.

But since you need to see a definition here is one (from the dictionary): abstract -The theoretical way of looking at things; something that exists only in idealized form.

Quite frankly, your argumentative skills reflect those of someone that delves deep into essay type subjects.

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I've not written an essay other than a dissertation in all of my undergraduate studies. Well done.

Why? Art can be rather abstract. Literature can be, too, "exists only in idealized form", sounds more like fitting to a poem than anything.
Reply 93
Original post by Brit_Miller
More eloquently put than me, but that's the point I was trying to make.There is real intelligence in being able to understand something like complex analysis, whereas something like writing a piece on Shakespeare is just analysing a text. I feel a person that can understand complex mathematical concepts can probably adjust to most other subjects.


Well there is a reason why mathematics is one of the more employable degrees, not just because of the actual content but because of the logical thinking processes that a maths degree promotes. Although I don't really agree with mathematics being categorically the hardest degree, it's a silly statement really; everyone is different, everyone is good at different things so naturally people will find different degrees varying in difficulty.
Reply 94
Original post by Brit_Miller
I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was just saying that I personally think an accomplished mathematician would probably do well at most academic (including essay based) subjects, in reply to you previous message.


Fair enough.
Original post by Noble.
Well there is a reason why mathematics is one of the more employable degrees, not just because of the actual content but because of the logical thinking processes that a maths degree promotes. Although I don't really agree with mathematics being categorically the hardest degree, it's a silly statement really; everyone is different, everyone is good at different things so naturally people will find different degrees varying in difficulty.


I know this as I study maths, but my arguments were aimed at people at the top institutes (like yourself) and possibly not for people at average institutes like myself. The content is obviously more challenging.
Reply 96
Although, one point that does perhaps indicate mathematics is one of the harder degrees, is that ultimately to do well on pretty much any degree you just need to put in the work. Most people could get a first if they worked hard. This is true in maths (and other subjects like physics) but it's only true up until a point. Some people literally never fully appreciate a theorem or abstract idea in mathematics and no amount of hard work gets them to that 'eureka' moment with some of the work. I know this is true for other essay subjects as well, but mathematics isn't bound by the English language, or really anything for that matter, there's areas of mathematics which only a few people in the world properly understand, it's quite literally limitless to a creative mind. Some people find beauty and deep meaning in artwork, music and books (and I do as well) but, in my opinion, it doesn't come close to the creativity and pure genius of some of the work of the best-known mathematicians over the last few centuries. Maths is just completely unparalleled at this high level, in my eyes. It's not exactly relevant to the thread though as it's mostly irrelevant to a degree :lol: (but does, perhaps, give some insight into why people often say a maths degree is the 'hardest' degree, right or wrong).
Reply 97
Original post by danny111
1. US is a four-year course, UK 3
2. Cambridge only has 10 week terms.

I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of cramming is higher. Saying that 3x harder seems extreme.

On another note, you wouldn't do these courses if you weren't very clever at maths in particular. Hence I don't think it's fair to say it is maths, it is hard maths, so it has to be the hardest course of all.

Have you tried getting firsts in essay-based subjects at uni? The reading and writing you have to do for them? So what is hardest? In terms of "understanding", passing, getting a good grade, amount of other people who could do the former, amount of work the average student has to put in?


If you don't mind the question, how long per week for a semester at MIT?
Reply 98
Original post by Noble.
Although, one point that does perhaps indicate mathematics is one of the harder degrees, is that ultimately to do well on pretty much any degree you just need to put in the work. Most people could get a first if they worked hard. This is true in maths (and other subjects like physics) but it's only true up until a point. Some people literally never fully appreciate a theorem or abstract idea in mathematics and no amount of hard work gets them to that 'eureka' moment with some of the work. I know this is true for other essay subjects as well, but mathematics isn't bound by the English language, or really anything for that matter, there's areas of mathematics which only a few people in the world properly understand, it's quite literally limitless to a creative mind. Some people find beauty and deep meaning in artwork, music and books (and I do as well) but, in my opinion, it doesn't come close to the creativity and pure genius of some of the work of the best-known mathematicians over the last few centuries. Maths is just completely unparalleled at this high level, in my eyes. It's not exactly relevant to the thread though as it's mostly irrelevant to a degree :lol: (but does, perhaps, give some insight into why people often say a maths degree is the 'hardest' degree, right or wrong).


This is why I love you :colondollar:

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Original post by Noble.
Well there is a reason why mathematics is one of the more employable degrees, not just because of the actual content but because of the logical thinking processes that a maths degree promotes. Although I don't really agree with mathematics being categorically the hardest degree, it's a silly statement really; everyone is different, everyone is good at different things so naturally people will find different degrees varying in difficulty.


OK, here's where I delve into maths vs other subjects.

There's a lot of arguments in this thread along the lines of 'what's easiest for some is hardest for others' 'a brilliant scientist I know struggles to write an essay', and so on.

So what we need to clear up this imprecision is a proper definition of 'hardest'.

I submit a reasonable definition would be 'the degree which the smallest %age of AAA A-Level students would be able to get a 2.1 in' (there are other reasonable definitions to be sure).

I put it to the posters in this thread that a decent proxy measurement of the above statistic is to imagine every undergraduate at your university doing each available course. How would the separate subject students perform?

I don't think it is much of a stretch at all to say that there is going to be a far higher percentage of mathematicians getting at at least a 2.1 in history, say, than vice versa. Hence one can fairly conclude that mathematics is harder than history, by the definition above. I do think also that mathematics might take the cake for the worst performance by non-mathematicians and hence be the hardest (maybe music too, though that's not purely due to academic difficulty).

I also reckon economists may win best 'average' performers across all subjects.

(the other reasonable definition of hardest I can think of is to take a representative sample of published papers for each subject and see how much of each a sample of the general population can understand. For example, reading some papers on genetic anthropology, I get the gist of the paper pretty well without having done Biology past GCSE; however, I can't go more than 3 words (literally) into my mathematician friend's PhD dissertation before I am completely lost, and that's with an undergrad maths degree :tongue:)
(edited 10 years ago)

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