The Student Room Group

Can we talk about the 40% PGCE drop out rate? Anyone here dropped out?

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Original post by Hi De Hi
Someone posted a link to this thread on TES and so I popped over to take a look and thiought I'd like to contribute.

Welcome. Hope you stick around!
Reply 221
You could put up with loads of paperwork, even tho it's wearying; we all have to adapt our dreams sooner or later. BUT WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH PERSONAL ABUSE, both from kids & their parents, & sometimes from colleagues in denial?
Reply 222
Original post by FilmExpert
This is because you are currently still doing your degree. They are yet to experience the graduate job market.

When I was doing my degree 0 people I knew were planning on going into teaching.

We graduated a few years ago. Now I know, 9 teachers, 2 on PGCEs, 2 applying this year and a few others who are considering it for next year. None of these people ever expressed any interest in teaching whilst at uni.

You'll see.


When I did my PGCE pretty much everyone I know was genuinely extremely passionate about teaching. I don't know anyone who chose it because they didn't know what else to do, even though people always go on about this "can't do, teach" thing.

There was one person on my course whose heart wasn't really in it. But guess what... He found it very hard, was failing things and ended up not completing the course and going in to a different career.

Although this is obviously just as anecdotal as your undergrad course experience, so it may just be that my tutors were particularly adept at noticing passion at interview.

Xxx
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Original post by kpwxx
When I did my PGCE pretty much everyone I know was genuinely extremely passionate about teaching. I don't know anyone who chose it because they didn't know what else to do, even though people always go on about this "can't do, teach" thing.

There was one person on my course whose heart wasn't really in it. But guess what... He found it very hard, was failing things and ended up not completing the course and going in to a different career.

Although this is obviously just as anecdotal as your undergrad course experience, so it may just be that my tutors were particularly adept at noticing passion at interview.


Of course, deciding to go into teaching later (rather than having wanted to do it for your whole life) doesn't necessarily mean you don't have a passion for it.

Obviously some people decide quite early on that they want to be a teacher, but I don't think this necessarily means they're the right person for it. They may turn out to be quite idealistic and end up disillusioned with the whole thing (I'm not saying that's automatically the case, just that it's possible).

I had never really planned on going into teaching (although it was always in the back of my mind) because it seemed kind of ordinary and I assumed that one day I would find out about a different career and it would be exactly what I wanted to do. But I didn't find anything else I really wanted to do, plus there are no jobs.

I fell into doing agency work in schools, spent a term as a technician/assistant and absolutely loved it. I got a lot of positive comments from teaching colleagues and even from a PGCE mentor who came into school to observe a student teacher in the department. I went to lots of different schools and worked in my specialist subject as well as other settings, and this reinforced my decision to apply for the PGCE.

The people who go into teaching in their mid/late 20s after a few years of patchy un(der)employment may be more cynical but are often coming into it with their eyes more open. If you've been out of work for a while and considering teaching, you're likely to have plenty of voluntary experience. There are also a lot of graduates working as Teaching Assistants or Cover Supervisors because they couldn't get a graduate job, and these people may discover a passion for teaching and decide to apply for teacher training later on.

The largest group of people on my PGCE were those aged 24-29 (there were a few straight out of uni, and a few in their 30s/40s with kids) and we hadn't always wanted to be teachers. But I certainly don't think that made us less committed. Perhaps some had first turned to the idea of teaching out of desperation for a stable job, but I think the application process and time spent in schools would weed out a lot of people who were unsure.
Reply 224
Original post by myrtille
Of course, deciding to go into teaching later (rather than having wanted to do it for your whole life) doesn't necessarily mean you don't have a passion for it.

Obviously some people decide quite early on that they want to be a teacher, but I don't think this necessarily means they're the right person for it. They may turn out to be quite idealistic and end up disillusioned with the whole thing (I'm not saying that's automatically the case, just that it's possible).

I had never really planned on going into teaching (although it was always in the back of my mind) because it seemed kind of ordinary and I assumed that one day I would find out about a different career and it would be exactly what I wanted to do. But I didn't find anything else I really wanted to do, plus there are no jobs.

I fell into doing agency work in schools, spent a term as a technician/assistant and absolutely loved it. I got a lot of positive comments from teaching colleagues and even from a PGCE mentor who came into school to observe a student teacher in the department. I went to lots of different schools and worked in my specialist subject as well as other settings, and this reinforced my decision to apply for the PGCE.

The people who go into teaching in their mid/late 20s after a few years of patchy un(der)employment may be more cynical but are often coming into it with their eyes more open. If you've been out of work for a while and considering teaching, you're likely to have plenty of voluntary experience. There are also a lot of graduates working as Teaching Assistants or Cover Supervisors because they couldn't get a graduate job, and these people may discover a passion for teaching and decide to apply for teacher training later on.

The largest group of people on my PGCE were those aged 24-29 (there were a few straight out of uni, and a few in their 30s/40s with kids) and we hadn't always wanted to be teachers. But I certainly don't think that made us less committed. Perhaps some had first turned to the idea of teaching out of desperation for a stable job, but I think the application process and time spent in schools would weed out a lot of people who were unsure.


I definitely agree. I don't think many people do actually get in to it without passion as like you say they don't make it that far.

It's interesting, most of my friends on the PGCE were In their thirties, and many others were just one or two years out of uni and knew what they wanted to do since uni.

Xxx



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Original post by maskofsanity
Why is that so bad? Have you seen what doctors put up with? Or police officers or lawyers or nurses? They cope with far worse abuse and from adults not children. I've decided not to enter teaching for other reasons but challenging behaviour was certainly never one of them. It's part of any public service job and at least in teaching the source of it is children who you can discipline.


From one of your other posts I see that you have a first in economics and a job as an HCA. Considering this and in light of your content here then I should be surprised if it was your decision which excluded you from the teaching profession.
Reply 226
Original post by myrtille
Of course, deciding to go into teaching later (rather than having wanted to do it for your whole life) doesn't necessarily mean you don't have a passion for it.

Obviously some people decide quite early on that they want to be a teacher, but I don't think this necessarily means they're the right person for it. They may turn out to be quite idealistic and end up disillusioned with the whole thing (I'm not saying that's automatically the case, just that it's possible).

I had never really planned on going into teaching (although it was always in the back of my mind) because it seemed kind of ordinary and I assumed that one day I would find out about a different career and it would be exactly what I wanted to do. But I didn't find anything else I really wanted to do, plus there are no jobs.

I fell into doing agency work in schools, spent a term as a technician/assistant and absolutely loved it. I got a lot of positive comments from teaching colleagues and even from a PGCE mentor who came into school to observe a student teacher in the department. I went to lots of different schools and worked in my specialist subject as well as other settings, and this reinforced my decision to apply for the PGCE.

The people who go into teaching in their mid/late 20s after a few years of patchy un(der)employment may be more cynical but are often coming into it with their eyes more open. If you've been out of work for a while and considering teaching, you're likely to have plenty of voluntary experience. There are also a lot of graduates working as Teaching Assistants or Cover Supervisors because they couldn't get a graduate job, and these people may discover a passion for teaching and decide to apply for teacher training later on.

The largest group of people on my PGCE were those aged 24-29 (there were a few straight out of uni, and a few in their 30s/40s with kids) and we hadn't always wanted to be teachers. But I certainly don't think that made us less committed. Perhaps some had first turned to the idea of teaching out of desperation for a stable job, but I think the application process and time spent in schools would weed out a lot of people who were unsure.


It would be interesting to know whether it's mostly recent graduates or people who have worked for a few years who drop out. When I got my first full-time job after I finished uni, it took me a while to get used to working 9-5 every day. I was tired most evenings and many of my colleagues who were also recent graduates felt the same. This was 'only' a call centre job so I can only imagine what a teaching job might be like.

I've worked for 3 years now and like many people in this thread, I've been thinking about going into teaching because I feel that it would be a lot more fulfilling than what I'm currently doing and I'm also hoping to have a stable career, which isn't easy if you're a language graduate (especially if you don't want to live in London). I worked as a teaching assistant in two schools and I really liked it. I was very lucky with my schools and the kids were quite well-behaved. They'd sometimes talk during lessons but there definitely wasn't any violence in the classroom. The teachers seemed quite relaxed (compared to most people I've worked with anyway).

I'm really worried after reading this thread. I don't mind working hard but I'm not the most confident person and I'm not sure if I could deal with constant abuse. I'm also worried that the kids would be able to tell which might make things even worse.

Two of my friends have done PGCEs. One of them did primary teaching and she says it's hard work but she loves it. She is in her NQT year now and she somehow still manages to have a social life. My other friend did secondary teaching and she was placed in two schools in rough areas in East London. She had an awful time and thought about quitting her PGCE several times but she finished it in the end (mostly because she wasn't sure what else to do). She managed to get a job in a better school and she's happier now but she hardly has any free time.

I like the idea of it but I'm not sure whether teaching is for me. I'm also worried that I mightn't be able to find a job after my PGCE. Although MFL is a shortage subject, there actually aren't that many jobs in the North West.
The drop out rate is linked to the substantial amount of work at PG Level.
KR,
Legendairy
Original post by ginger.

I'm really worried after reading this thread. I don't mind working hard but I'm not the most confident person and I'm not sure if I could deal with constant abuse. I'm also worried that the kids would be able to tell which might make things even worse.

Two of my friends have done PGCEs. One of them did primary teaching and she says it's hard work but she loves it. She is in her NQT year now and she somehow still manages to have a social life. My other friend did secondary teaching and she was placed in two schools in rough areas in East London. She had an awful time and thought about quitting her PGCE several times but she finished it in the end (mostly because she wasn't sure what else to do). She managed to get a job in a better school and she's happier now but she hardly has any free time.

I like the idea of it but I'm not sure whether teaching is for me. I'm also worried that I mightn't be able to find a job after my PGCE. Although MFL is a shortage subject, there actually aren't that many jobs in the North West.


Hi,

I'm a new MFL teacher so am happy to share my experience.

I would agree with your primary teaching friend - it is insanely hard work, but a lot of the time I do love it. I enjoy the part of it where I'm teaching, just not so much the amount of time I spend in the evening planning lessons. But that will be so much quicker next year when I've got a whole year's worth of resources to reuse and adapt, rather than making most things from scratch (or trawling TES for ages to find something - which can be as time consuming as making a resource myself!).

In the first month or so of the NQT year, my social life was literally non-existent. It's now got better and I'm getting out of the house socially at least once at the weekend most weeks. Still working loads but the balance is slowly improving.

I never considered dropping out of the PGCE though at times I wondered how I would actually make it to the end without just having to call in sick because I didn't have lessons planned on time! But somehow I managed...

I didn't get any tough placement schools - both were in small towns/villages, with "nice" kids. I did still have difficulties with behaviour in my 2nd placement (KS3) but it was silly disruptive behaviour (calling out, making silly noises, chatting) rather than abuse. In the whole year, I was sworn at once by a pupil, and he was excluded for several days as a result.

Some of my friends did get tougher schools, and they coped. I think the pressures are different - they had a lot less planning to do, partly as they would get through less content in a lesson in those schools, and also because struggling schools often try to standardise a lot more - they often have a lot of shared resources, even powerpoints for each lesson on the shared area - so they did less planning of their own. Whereas in my 1st school (KS4-5, hardly any behaviour issues) everyone did their own planning and lessons were expected to be at a very high standard all of the time. So they had more stressful days, whereas I enjoyed the teaching but came home to several hours of planning each night...

I can't comment on the jobs situation in the NW - I'm based in the Midlands which isn't the top area for jobs but still has a fair few. They do come up gradually throughout the year though. I applied for my first job in January and finally got my job in May, after 7 interviews (and several others turned down because of clashing dates). Some friends of mine got their jobs in June/July.
Reply 229
Original post by myrtille
Hi,

I'm a new MFL teacher so am happy to share my experience.

I would agree with your primary teaching friend - it is insanely hard work, but a lot of the time I do love it. I enjoy the part of it where I'm teaching, just not so much the amount of time I spend in the evening planning lessons. But that will be so much quicker next year when I've got a whole year's worth of resources to reuse and adapt, rather than making most things from scratch (or trawling TES for ages to find something - which can be as time consuming as making a resource myself!).

In the first month or so of the NQT year, my social life was literally non-existent. It's now got better and I'm getting out of the house socially at least once at the weekend most weeks. Still working loads but the balance is slowly improving.

I never considered dropping out of the PGCE though at times I wondered how I would actually make it to the end without just having to call in sick because I didn't have lessons planned on time! But somehow I managed...

I didn't get any tough placement schools - both were in small towns/villages, with "nice" kids. I did still have difficulties with behaviour in my 2nd placement (KS3) but it was silly disruptive behaviour (calling out, making silly noises, chatting) rather than abuse. In the whole year, I was sworn at once by a pupil, and he was excluded for several days as a result.

Some of my friends did get tougher schools, and they coped. I think the pressures are different - they had a lot less planning to do, partly as they would get through less content in a lesson in those schools, and also because struggling schools often try to standardise a lot more - they often have a lot of shared resources, even powerpoints for each lesson on the shared area - so they did less planning of their own. Whereas in my 1st school (KS4-5, hardly any behaviour issues) everyone did their own planning and lessons were expected to be at a very high standard all of the time. So they had more stressful days, whereas I enjoyed the teaching but came home to several hours of planning each night...

I can't comment on the jobs situation in the NW - I'm based in the Midlands which isn't the top area for jobs but still has a fair few. They do come up gradually throughout the year though. I applied for my first job in January and finally got my job in May, after 7 interviews (and several others turned down because of clashing dates). Some friends of mine got their jobs in June/July.


Thanks a lot for sharing your experience!

Interesting! I don't think the workload was an issue for my friend. She was just unhappy because the kids treated her so badly and she wasn't able to teach properly because no one would listen to her. She did teach in two particularly rough areas though and one of her lecturers actually said to her that if she could teach there, she could teach pretty much anywhere. She definitely learned a lot and it was probably an advantage when she applied for jobs.

I mostly asked because we're both quite shy and I'm also from a small town and I'm not sure how bad inner city schools are. Having said that, I did work as a TA in a school in Liverpool and I really enjoyed it but I'm sure there are some difficult schools in Merseyside and Cheshire too.

Do you feel like you're under more pressure because you work in a 'good' school? It should definitely get easier next year, planning lessons takes a lot of time, even as a TA. The more experienced teachers in my school seemed quite relaxed most of the time.

I'm definitely planning to apply early! Did most of your uni friends manage to find a job?
I'm just coming to the end of my first placement on my Secondary History PGCE - and while I will say it was not at all what I expected, the highs have definitely outweighed the lows.

There are some times when I just think - what on earth is the point? I've sometimes felt like I'm just going through the motions to get by in a lesson instead of teaching about a subject I love. But when you get the kids who put so much effort into their homework, or tell their friends about a really good lesson they had with me, or are really enthusiastic during lessons... it honestly makes all the stress and crying worth it!

A plain example of this was yesterday: I had Year 9's period 1 and I honestly felt like a total failure. They were completely immature about a serious topic, I had spent ages planning this really interactive and relevant lesson for them, and they just could not focus. My lesson went down the pan and I had them copying out of the textbook for the rest of the lesson, and set a long homework. That was probably the one moment where I really thought why do I even bother? But then I had one of my year 8 classes in the afternoon, and we had an excellent lesson. Enthusiasm, real curiosity, and some brilliant homeworks produced from the previous lesson. When I'd finished that lesson and some of the kids came up to me and said it was really interesting, I felt like my year 9 lesson earlier in the day never even existed :tongue:

It's an emotional rollercoaster but you soon realise that even though there are some rock bottom lows, there is always something that will happen that will somewhat restore your faith!
That's exactly right Outlaw, there are lessons where you think afterwards that was just a waste of time then there's other ones where the time flies because it's going really well and you're disappointed there isn't more time left!

One of the teachers in my placement school said to me today 'teaching is like being a football manager at times, you're only as good as your last lesson/game' and that's true - you could have a string of bad lessons then an amazing one and you are on such a high but conversely you can have a run of amazing lessons then one stinker and you start to question yourself.

This analogy seems to hold up very well when you think about faculty reviews or Ofsted as you are judged on one lesson sometimes, often only 30 minutes or whatever. I don't particularly agree with this as a fair reflection of you as a teacher but it's definitely a profession where you have to be on your toes at all times.
''Just because Gove accepts these blog posts, opinions in fact, as credible sources, that doesn't mean to say I will. Do you have any scientific proof or true sources to back up your claims?''

Actually the poster is on to an extremely credible source, the links he posted by old andrew perfectly describes what happens in many of the bad secondary schools in England, it's not ''opinion'' but is in fact actual fact. I know because I work in them.
Comparing working in a nursery school to working in tough secondary english schools is comparing apples to trees.
Original post by carnationlilyrose
It's a combination of massive overwork, a lot of pointless paperwork, horrible kids and the shattering of idealistic dreams.


A good preparation for you in the workplace!
Original post by Maid Marian
:afraid:
Is it just this bad for secondary schools, or is primary school training just as bad?


I think it's similar. It depends on where you go to really.
Original post by Mr M
I admire your unbridled enthusiasm but I am absolutely convinced you will come to eat those words. Dead Poets Society is fiction.


And let's not pretend DPS ends well.
Original post by Mr M
Worth remembering this. When people say "I couldn't teach because I couldn't put up with the bad behaviour" I always reply "most children are nice, most of the time". In each class you might have one or two who are genuinely unpleasant and, if you are lucky and your SLT effective, you might only witness frighteningly psychotic behaviour a few times in your career.


Indeed. And it is also important how you have started teaching. Make your borders clear.
I'm a BEd myself so I didn't have the experience to go into a PGCE after a BA.

But I don't find it unbearable at all. I have had three practica, and have had additionally taught in six other schools. Obviously there have been challenging moments in the classroom, but you learn and you improve. I was also never alone in school - when I encountered problems, I asked other teachers for advice, even to see if I could observe their lesson with the same class to reflect on my own practices.

I think a major reason why people dropped out because they did not have good degrees themselves. It probably meant they were not used to working hard, doing things NOT last minute, or having the ability to do things efficiently. I personally do things very quickly, and have always completed my assignments like a month before the deadlines, and so in a school, I think it helps me to feel better not having the need to rush things through the very last second.
Because of the pressure on schools and individual teachers to take responsibility for the performance of students

In reality - young people come into teaching and suddenly discover who it is that does all of the hard work

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