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Applying to Oxbridge for Law vs ML/MML with extenuating circumstances

Hey everyone :biggrin:

I posted an inquiry last night about my intent to apply for either Law or ML/MML at Oxbridge (Ox or Cam).

I am from Germany and recently graduated from a very bad Gymnasium with an Abitur GPA of 2,3 due to extenuating circumstances (Ox: 1,5; Cam: 1,0-1,3).

My Abitur grades



I had grave extenuating circumstances to deal with, however. I had the following circumstances to deal with:

Deaths of most immediate members of my family (both grandparents in both years, uncle and a cousin due to cancer)

My mother's deteriorating health and me being her only caregiver (we live together in Germany with no outside support)

The workload for ALL subjects, compared to A-levels, was relentless. I had little time for these studies as my mother took up most of my time and she made just enough money for the government to deny her any helper at home.

I was ill enough for my grades in subjects I'm normally good at (e.g. philosophy) to seriously suffer.



So, it is obvious that my grades are nowhere near Oxbridge standard. I wouldn't even get an interview with those grades.

So dear mother, because she saw my sorrowing, signed me up to do A-levels in England starting next year (around March or so) in order to salvage my plagued academic record.
I plan to take History, English, German and a 4th one at least to AS-level.. I am good at all facilitating humanities subjects, while crap at sciences and maths.

I was thinking of doing Law (with German Law) or the Modern Language course at Oxbridge, I love both courses equally. However, I have trouble discerning which institution would be best for me.

For Law, I have those strengths:

My aunt is a criminal court judge in Greece, and I worked in her office while staying at her place during the 3-weeks-course of the funerals of my family, and I gained lots of insights on what a judge/lawyer has to do on a daily basis, be it researching, authoring letters, applying statutes to cases etc. All good things.

I helped my mother numerous times with her government proceedings, e.g. when the government was trying to force her into a job she absolutely couldn't do for health reasons - I authored letters to the government agencies and applied their statutes to my mother's case.

For Germans: You may be familiar with the so-called "Abo-Fallen" (or website conning schemes), where you sign up on a website whose services are to be paid for, yet they don't tell you about the cost. My mum did something like that, and I helped her out with that as well.

eBay and selling fake brand name articles to people: I was very successful in convincing the offender to pay us the money back for a fraudulent Burberry jacket that she sold us by applying the statutes of copyright and trading-mark law to this case.



I have no idea if any of this counts, but I listed it just in case. I knew I was drawn to Law, but these four instances really made it obvious to me, as in a slap-on-the-head kind of way.

However, I am also significantly drawn to the ML/MML Oxbridge courses. My strengths in those areas are:

natural aptitude for languages (I speak Greek, German and English fluently and my Abitur report qualifications also include Latin and Spanish).

During my life, I lived in both Greece and Germany and experienced the good and bad sides of each culture

I am interested in how languages developed and change over time, and the criticisms behind this development.

Corporate buzz-words and word-imports: How humans use different language depending on the situation

Male vs. female language comparison

The influence of "slang"..



However, I do not have as much "practical experience" with languages, as I do with Law. It is more natural to me and my strengths..

Oxford
- LNAT/MLAT: Doesn't particularly scare me; I have done a few practice questions, and the essay questions are a tad unpredictable ._. The MLAT does scare me even less.
- GCSE maths grade C requirement (for Law): I don't have GCSEs and the maths grade was due to extenuating circumstances, plus I am not particularly good at maths :frown:
- shortlisting: This is what I'm particularly worried about. I want to get to at least the interview stage, because only there I will be able to fully show my passion for Law. Although, for ML, I'm not worried about that.
- College choice: I like the big colleges a lot, like Balliol and Magdalen.. but any college will do - even St Catz.
- They do not have a special extenuating circumstances form like Cambridge, do they?

Cambridge
- Cambridge Law Test: Now THIS one is more what I've been working with in the past. Although my essay technique is quite chaotic.
- SAQ: YES. So much yes. They take EVERYTHING into account. What you did at your school, what modules you took, how you fared etc.,
- Special Access scheme: This is, quite literally, a godsend. In Germany, especially, lots of people drop out due to the workload, and thus there are only a few graduates.
- College choice: Clare or Trinity. Love both. But if I am reallocated to another college, that's fine.. except if it's Caius. I have nothing against the college, only the food.
- interview shortlisting: Great! However, I heard interviews at Cambridge are more exhausting than interviews at Oxford ._.
- Cambridge takes up the whole town.. however, it is closer to London than Oxford, but then again: Will I have time to visit London?

Okay, tons of info about me. However, I really have trouble discerning which one would be the best for me. I am more drawn to Oxford for the place itself, but more drawn to Cambridge for the special consideration of all applicants.

All help is appreciated. :smile:
If your grades are significantly below the expected requirements for Oxbridge, then they are unlikely to take you, even with extenuating circumstances (I don't understand the Arbitur well enough to know how far below their requirements you are). However, if you're taking A-Levels then they won't pay as much attention to your Arbitur grades - I know one person who got in after re-taking all her A-Levels (different ones to those she took 1st time).

I'd also like to add that I'm told the food at Caius has improved of late, and that Cambridge university does not take up the whole town - this is just what students who have never bothered going South of Downing believe. You will also probably not have much time to visit London during term time, but you can go before or after (and Cambridge and Oxford are both about the same distance from London, the difference is negligible).

Are you drawn by the subject of Law or the career? You can still become a lawyer with an M(M)L degree.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 2
Original post by PythianLegume
If your grades are significantly below the expected requirements for Oxbridge, then they are unlikely to take you, even with extenuating circumstances (I don't understand the Arbitur well enough to know how far below their requirements you are). However, if you're taking A-Levels then they won't pay as much attention to your Arbitur grades - I know one person who got in after re-taking all her A-Levels (different ones to those she took 1st time).

I'd also like to add that I'm told the food at Caius has improved of late, and that Cambridge university does not take up the whole town - this is just what students who have never bothered going South of Downing believe. You will also probably not have much time to visit London during term time, but you can go before or after (and Cambridge and Oxford are both about the same distance from London, the difference is negligible).

Are you drawn by the subject of Law or the career? You can still become a lawyer with an M(M)L degree.


Thank you for your reply :smile:

I am taking A-levels. I know that I won't get in with my current grades, as Oxbridge ask for 1,0-1,5, and Oxford pay attention to the grades achieved at relevant subjects ._. This is the whole point of taking A-levels, so that I can salvage my academic record.

Ah, thank you for the info on Caius. That's good. Oh, and thank god Cambridge isn't as small as I envisioned. It isn't London, but it certainly isn't a village either, is it? And I figured I wouldn't have time to visit London during term time, that's why location is even more important. Oxford is bigger, but both places are lovely :smile: I don't give two fusses about ranking tables; I'm drawn to Oxbridge because of the course, the location and the teaching system.

With Law... well, it is more the career than the subject. But I have been told that the GDL is unfavourable due to the difficulty to get funding, and tbh I find it silly to take an entirely different degree only to avoid the competition for the Law degree.. plus, I don't have the practical experience with M(M)L that I have with Law.. I kmow, PS stuff. Plus, the GDL programmes don't offer Media Law :frown:

I am equally drawn to both subjects.. argh, I don't know what to do.. that's why I'm asking you guys for an unbiased opinion :smile:
Original post by yachi86
Thank you for your reply :smile:

I am taking A-levels. I know that I won't get in with my current grades, as Oxbridge ask for 1,0-1,5, and Oxford pay attention to the grades achieved at relevant subjects ._. This is the whole point of taking A-levels, so that I can salvage my academic record.

Ah, thank you for the info on Caius. That's good. Oh, and thank god Cambridge isn't as small as I envisioned. It isn't London, but it certainly isn't a village either, is it? And I figured I wouldn't have time to visit London during term time, that's why location is even more important. Oxford is bigger, but both places are lovely :smile: I don't give two fusses about ranking tables; I'm drawn to Oxbridge because of the course, the location and the teaching system.

With Law... well, it is more the career than the subject. But I have been told that the GDL is unfavourable due to the difficulty to get funding, and tbh I find it silly to take an entirely different degree only to avoid the competition for the Law degree.. plus, I don't have the practical experience with M(M)L that I have with Law.. I kmow, PS stuff. Plus, the GDL programmes don't offer Media Law :frown:

I am equally drawn to both subjects.. argh, I don't know what to do.. that's why I'm asking you guys for an unbiased opinion :smile:


Oxford isn't that much bigger, they are both regular sized towns - neither feels like a small village or a sprawling city.

We can't really give you an unbiased opinion, unfortunately. Ultimately, it's down to which you prefer more, and that choice can only be made by you - we can just tell you more of the facts, or our own opinion.

And it's not taking another degree to avoid the competition of a Law degree, it's because you would enjoy the subject more.
To be honest if you can go to university in a different country surely your mother's care is not a massive responsibility as you seemed to make out in the OP.
Reply 5
Original post by PythianLegume
Oxford isn't that much bigger, they are both regular sized towns - neither feels like a small village or a sprawling city.

We can't really give you an unbiased opinion, unfortunately. Ultimately, it's down to which you prefer more, and that choice can only be made by you - we can just tell you more of the facts, or our own opinion.

And it's not taking another degree to avoid the competition of a Law degree, it's because you would enjoy the subject more.


Thank you anyway :smile: Judging from your first post, I assume you went to Oxford.

I know, I shouldn't be put off by the competition. However, that is more impulsive.. I see students with so many A*s at GCSE, and really good grades at A-level. It's only natural to feel a bit dizzy about it all..

I love both equally, and I can't find anything that would give one the edge over the other ._.
Reply 6
Original post by x__justmyluck
To be honest if you can go to university in a different country surely your mother's care is not a massive responsibility as you seemed to make out in the OP.


I have to, because finding a place for Law is next to impossible here in Germany.. Numerus Clausus is very big. I've been told by German unis that I'd have to wait 2 years before I start ._.

Well, my mother would be taken care of by my father while I am in England for studies. It's extremely complicated, and I was oversimplifying it in the OP, so I wholeheartedly apologise for any confusion :smile:
Reply 7
Original post by yachi86
Thank you anyway :smile: Judging from your first post, I assume you went to Oxford.

I know, I shouldn't be put off by the competition. However, that is more impulsive.. I see students with so many A*s at GCSE, and really good grades at A-level. It's only natural to feel a bit dizzy about it all..

I love both equally, and I can't find anything that would give one the edge over the other ._.


For Law Oxford's course is quite different, plus you can do German law there whilst Cam is just Erasmus.
Reply 8
Be careful about taking German as an A-Level if it is your native language - some universities will not accept it from my knowledge, though it would be worth checking as I could be wrong!


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by yachi86
I have to, because finding a place for Law is next to impossible here in Germany.. Numerus Clausus is very big. I've been told by German unis that I'd have to wait 2 years before I start ._.

Well, my mother would be taken care of by my father while I am in England for studies. It's extremely complicated, and I was oversimplifying it in the OP, so I wholeheartedly apologise for any confusion :smile:


Thankyou for being nice in the reply, I'm sorry if my tone was a bit harsh, I was actually a little offended that you implied Catz would be the worst college to end up at (as that's where I am and it's an awesome college :wink: ) so apologies if I came across rude.
Reply 10
Original post by Le Nombre
For Law Oxford's course is quite different, plus you can do German law there whilst Cam is just Erasmus.


Ah yeah, I forgot. Although I'm not sure whether I want to practice Law in Germany eventually. With German Law at Oxford, I could enter the bar exam in Germany..


Original post by Paralove
Be careful about taking German as an A-Level if it is your native language - some universities will not accept it from my knowledge, though it would be worth checking as I could be wrong!

Posted from TSR Mobile


Okay, gotta email Oxford and Cambridge how this is handled.
Reply 11
Original post by x__justmyluck
Thankyou for being nice in the reply, I'm sorry if my tone was a bit harsh, I was actually a little offended that you implied Catz would be the worst college to end up at (as that's where I am and it's an awesome college :wink: ) so apologies if I came across rude.


Ooh, I'm sorry if I offended your college :frown: That was in no way my intention; Catz is much more modern than any of the other Oxford colleges, so Catz may not have an historical appeal. I prefer the historical colleges more than the modern ones. No need to go back to the past. You'd be still in the past.

All colleges are lovely, and I have no particular preference :smile:
Original post by yachi86
Hey everyone :biggrin:

I posted an inquiry last night about my intent to apply for either Law or ML/MML at Oxbridge (Ox or Cam).

I am from Germany and recently graduated from a very bad Gymnasium with an Abitur GPA of 2,3 due to extenuating circumstances (Ox: 1,5; Cam: 1,0-1,3).

My Abitur grades



I had grave extenuating circumstances to deal with, however. I had the following circumstances to deal with:

Deaths of most immediate members of my family (both grandparents in both years, uncle and a cousin due to cancer)

My mother's deteriorating health and me being her only caregiver (we live together in Germany with no outside support)

The workload for ALL subjects, compared to A-levels, was relentless. I had little time for these studies as my mother took up most of my time and she made just enough money for the government to deny her any helper at home.

I was ill enough for my grades in subjects I'm normally good at (e.g. philosophy) to seriously suffer.



So, it is obvious that my grades are nowhere near Oxbridge standard. I wouldn't even get an interview with those grades.

So dear mother, because she saw my sorrowing, signed me up to do A-levels in England starting next year (around March or so) in order to salvage my plagued academic record.
I plan to take History, English, German and a 4th one at least to AS-level.. I am good at all facilitating humanities subjects, while crap at sciences and maths.

I was thinking of doing Law (with German Law) or the Modern Language course at Oxbridge, I love both courses equally. However, I have trouble discerning which institution would be best for me.

For Law, I have those strengths:

My aunt is a criminal court judge in Greece, and I worked in her office while staying at her place during the 3-weeks-course of the funerals of my family, and I gained lots of insights on what a judge/lawyer has to do on a daily basis, be it researching, authoring letters, applying statutes to cases etc. All good things.

I helped my mother numerous times with her government proceedings, e.g. when the government was trying to force her into a job she absolutely couldn't do for health reasons - I authored letters to the government agencies and applied their statutes to my mother's case.

For Germans: You may be familiar with the so-called "Abo-Fallen" (or website conning schemes), where you sign up on a website whose services are to be paid for, yet they don't tell you about the cost. My mum did something like that, and I helped her out with that as well.

eBay and selling fake brand name articles to people: I was very successful in convincing the offender to pay us the money back for a fraudulent Burberry jacket that she sold us by applying the statutes of copyright and trading-mark law to this case.



I have no idea if any of this counts, but I listed it just in case. I knew I was drawn to Law, but these four instances really made it obvious to me, as in a slap-on-the-head kind of way.

However, I am also significantly drawn to the ML/MML Oxbridge courses. My strengths in those areas are:

natural aptitude for languages (I speak Greek, German and English fluently and my Abitur report qualifications also include Latin and Spanish).

During my life, I lived in both Greece and Germany and experienced the good and bad sides of each culture

I am interested in how languages developed and change over time, and the criticisms behind this development.

Corporate buzz-words and word-imports: How humans use different language depending on the situation

Male vs. female language comparison

The influence of "slang"..



However, I do not have as much "practical experience" with languages, as I do with Law. It is more natural to me and my strengths..

Oxford
- LNAT/MLAT: Doesn't particularly scare me; I have done a few practice questions, and the essay questions are a tad unpredictable ._. The MLAT does scare me even less.
- GCSE maths grade C requirement (for Law): I don't have GCSEs and the maths grade was due to extenuating circumstances, plus I am not particularly good at maths :frown:
- shortlisting: This is what I'm particularly worried about. I want to get to at least the interview stage, because only there I will be able to fully show my passion for Law. Although, for ML, I'm not worried about that.
- College choice: I like the big colleges a lot, like Balliol and Magdalen.. but any college will do - even St Catz.
- They do not have a special extenuating circumstances form like Cambridge, do they?

Cambridge
- Cambridge Law Test: Now THIS one is more what I've been working with in the past. Although my essay technique is quite chaotic.
- SAQ: YES. So much yes. They take EVERYTHING into account. What you did at your school, what modules you took, how you fared etc.,
- Special Access scheme: This is, quite literally, a godsend. In Germany, especially, lots of people drop out due to the workload, and thus there are only a few graduates.
- College choice: Clare or Trinity. Love both. But if I am reallocated to another college, that's fine.. except if it's Caius. I have nothing against the college, only the food.
- interview shortlisting: Great! However, I heard interviews at Cambridge are more exhausting than interviews at Oxford ._.
- Cambridge takes up the whole town.. however, it is closer to London than Oxford, but then again: Will I have time to visit London?

Okay, tons of info about me. However, I really have trouble discerning which one would be the best for me. I am more drawn to Oxford for the place itself, but more drawn to Cambridge for the special consideration of all applicants.

All help is appreciated. :smile:


Oxford will take your extenuating circumstances into account; I believe you need to get your referee to mention them in your reference :smile: If I were you, I would email both Oxford and Cambridge, explain your situation to them, and ask whether you'd make a competitive application after doing A levels, just to be safe.

My advice would be to pick the subject you actually prefer studying. The courses are intense, and it's really difficult to sustain studying a subject you don't enjoy (or at least, don't mind) for 3 or 4 years. I have a friend who choose Law ostensibly because it was more "practical" and is now struggling because he really doesn't like some aspects of the course. Really, don't choose a subject solely on "practical considerations" (eg MML is statistically easier to get into than Law).

For Law, your practical experience won't be especially helpful because Oxford (and Cambridge) focuses on the academic side of law, rather than the vocational. You should also try to engage in extra-curricular readings (eg McBride's Letters to a Law Student, legal commentaries on issues of interest) to demonstrate your interest. The same is also true for MML; the tutors would be more interested in why you like the language(s) and what you've done to indicate that interest, rather than work experience (unless you can tie this in to how it fascinates you academically eg you did research on x area, and found it very interesting for z reasons)

I think it's also worth taking into consideration course structure. I'm not sure about MML, but Cambridge law allows for more options and has exams annually (as opposed to Oxford's one massive exam at the end).

You probably need a GCSE equivalent for Maths, unless your extenuating circumstances also covers your equivalent qualifications. Could you not take just GCSE maths, on top of your A levels?

For the GDL, if you secure a training contract with a UK law firm, most of the time, they will sponsor it so funding shouldn't be an issue. It is worth checking if Germany has a GDL equivalent if your plan is to return home to practise eventually.

I don't think interviews at Cambridge are necessarily any more exhausting than those at Oxford. I'm inclined to think they're similar, although the format might vary.

I don't normally travel much during term time, but I have friends who do (from both Ox and Cam) so it's certainly doable. It depends on how efficient you are at work and what your schedule looks like (eg number of hours spent on extra-curriculars). I find that Ox has more than enough to occupy me as it is!

Good luck!

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