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Zidane>Ronaldo=Messi

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Reply 40
Original post by pane123
Is this ridiculous in some way? Rather a lot of people think Messi is the best ever and rightly so.


It is not ridiculous, just wrong. Messi's career is not fully fulfilled yet, he still has some way to go before he gets to Maradona's achievements and in particular, guts. I can't take him as being better than Maradona until he carries a small team to a league title, and wins the world cup too.
Reply 41
Original post by Mr_Vain
It is not ridiculous, just wrong. Messi's career is not fully fulfilled yet, he still has some way to go before he gets to Maradona's achievements and in particular, guts. I can't take him as being better than Maradona until he carries a small team to a league title, and wins the world cup too.

Is it Messi's fault that he plays with barcelona. Take it this way, ribery got nominated for balon d'or by being the best player in the best team but there were 4 other candidates.

Messi is the best player in the 2nd/3rd best team and there is no candidate to oppose him. The guy needs a few more years, but he's already cemented best player of all time in my eyes.
Reply 42
Don't get why people keep mentioning Ronaldinho in this conversation. He has no place there.


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Reply 43
Original post by bammy jastard 27
Is it Messi's fault that he plays with barcelona. Take it this way, ribery got nominated for balon d'or by being the best player in the best team but there were 4 other candidates.

Messi is the best player in the 2nd/3rd best team and there is no candidate to oppose him. The guy needs a few more years, but he's already cemented best player of all time in my eyes.


No, absolutely not. But, if he wants to prove once and for all that he can justified as the best ever, he has to win with handicaps (apart from height which is pretty irrelevant). And I view winning a World Cup as pretty crucial too, i.e. he has to carry the Argies to a World Cup and do it with such flair like Maradona. Messi is really up there, but I think people are unjustifiably losing their rationality with him because he has been so dominant in his era even against Ronaldo snapping at his heels.
Reply 44
Original post by Mr_Vain
It is not ridiculous, just wrong. Messi's career is not fully fulfilled yet, he still has some way to go before he gets to Maradona's achievements and in particular, guts. I can't take him as being better than Maradona until he carries a small team to a league title, and wins the world cup too.


What smaller team would you like Messi to go to? What sane person would leave a team like Barcelona, where he will be getting about £300k/week after tax, just to prove he can carry a small team to glory?

Do you honestly think Maradona could carry a team like Newcastle to the Premier League title in this day and age? Money has changed football and stuff like this isn't possible anymore.

What money has also done is make the World Cup somewhat irrelevant. Winning it is great, sure, but all the best players play in the Champions' League now - winning that makes you the best.

Is the fact that a team of Barcelona's stature has built its team around Messi not testament to his extraordinary ability?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 45
Original post by 419
Don't get why people keep mentioning Ronaldinho in this conversation. He has no place there.


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Because when he was at his best he was bloody good to watch. I don't think anyone is suggesting that he's the best of all time, though.
Original post by Mr_Vain
Even better than Maradona? Really?


Yep, what Messi lacks in international success compared to Maradona, he more than makes up (and then some) in domestic success, being an integral part of the foundation, and then the star, of arguably the greatest club side ever.


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Reply 47
Original post by NathanW18
Kind of hard to rate all of those players when people here are not old enough to have seen them play. I'm sure all of your watched YouTube footage of them is proof of how much better they are than Ronaldo & Messi. Two players that a lot of people have watched all of their matches.


thats part of my point, people are always baised to players of their current generation,but then old commentaotrs who have seen pele, falcao, maradona zico, original ronaldo zidane, messi etc, regard the early players as better- messi is close though, most people regard maradona as greatest forwar, zico as one of the greatest goal scoring midfeilders ( look at his international record) other mentions pele, cruyff, platini, You also have to rememebr people also regard efenders as better bac then too, so you had more to deal with then that messi does now.
Reply 48
Original post by NathanW18
Kind of hard to rate all of those players when people here are not old enough to have seen them play. I'm sure all of your watched YouTube footage of them is proof of how much better they are than Ronaldo & Messi. Two players that a lot of people have watched all of their matches.


thats part of my point, people are always baised to players of their current generation,but then old commentaotrs who have seen pele, falcao, maradona zico, original ronaldo zidane, messi etc, regard the early players as better- messi is close though, most people regard maradona as greatest forwar, zico as one of the greatest goal scoring midfeilders ( look at his international record) other mentions pele, cruyff, platini, You also have to rememebr people also regard Defenders as better back then too, so you had more to deal with then that messi does now.
Original post by CB91
Free kicks? Tricks? Are you ok?

Fair enough he doesn't score enough, but when he does it's normally a massive goal (v Chelsea 09, WC final).

Iniesta would have multiple Ballon d'Or's but he's in the time of Messi and Ronaldo. If Zidane would have been playing atm he would have 0 aswell. Iniesta has been the maestro behind a sextuple, another 2 CL, 2 Euro, and a World Cup, being player of the tournament in atleast 2 of them and the standout player in the greatest national team ever.

And he's still only 29.


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Spain's success has been a team effort, and it's only in 2012 you could claim he was the key man. Zidane almost single-handedly dragged France to the 2006 Final.

I'm not denying Iniesta is an absolutely magnificent player, but I think Zidane shades it as his greatest performances were on the big stage, and he simply has more in his locker than Iniesta.
Reply 50
Original post by EatMyJunk
thats part of my point, people are always baised to players of their current generation,but then old commentaotrs who have seen pele, falcao, maradona zico, original ronaldo zidane, messi etc, regard the early players as better- messi is close though, most people regard maradona as greatest forwar, zico as one of the greatest goal scoring midfeilders ( look at his international record) other mentions pele, cruyff, platini, You also have to rememebr people also regard Defenders as better back then too, so you had more to deal with then that messi does now.


Who regards defenders as better back then? Messi would waltz past defenders from the 1970s, for example, in the same way I would be able to take the ball past a 5 year old girl.

Players - defenders and goalkeepers included - are much, much fitter nowadays than they were 20+ years ago. Add to that the fact that training techniques and tactics are more advanced and I would suggest Messi has a lot more to deal with than Pele and co ever did.
Original post by CB91
I was more on about your "you had to have seen him to know how good he was" line.

I enjoyed watching Zidane as much as anyone but he was far from perfect, still an all time great though.

From what I've seen in my lifetime, Messi (GOAT IMO) > C. Ronaldo > Ronaldo > Zidane = Iniesta > Xavi > Ronaldinho > Kaka.

Kind of unfair on defenders but it's the nature of the game tbh.


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After the first tier of Pele, Maradona and Messi, the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer and Maldini deserve to be in the (very large) second tier imo
Original post by Wilfred Little
Santos are obviously a classic football club, I didn't say they weren't, just that the majority of Pele's goals came against really crap teams. Look it up. If they were against the best teams in Brazil then you could compare it to the quality of a top division in a country but they weren't.





I tend not to take the opinions of older people too seriously to be honest. A lot of them tend to have this idea that that can spot something us younger fans can't and they're somehow more wise and knowledgeable. Not saying your dad is like that I'm just putting it out there.

Another thing that I find interesting, is Pele's recognition of his team mates, or should I say, lack of:



Gerson's comments on Pele's list:



Pele is a ruthless, narcissistic bastard who over hypes his own achievements. Barely played in '62 and Brazil still won, which shows how good they were, and yet he won't acknowledge his team mates :biggrin:?

Pele was obviously great, but there are a fair few players who's achievements are far more impressive. Maradona, Messi, Eusebio, Puskas. Obviously I have not watched all of these week in week out, so I can only go by the history books and judge by those (which is more informed than most people who just rattle off Pele's name as the automatic greatest in the same way people do it with Ali without having ever watched a fight). But Pele likes to base his argument as the greatest on stats so I'm just making a point others have more impressive stats than he does. There is no argument to convince me Pele is the greatest or even on the same tier as those guys.

He's an imposter.


Good work
^While he may not be the candidate for best ever, Ronaldinho is the most naturally talented player out there tbh (at least one of them -- very high on the list)
Reply 54
Original post by pane123
Who regards defenders as better back then? Messi would waltz past defenders from the 1970s, for example, in the same way I would be able to take the ball past a 5 year old girl.

Players - defenders and goalkeepers included - are much, much fitter nowadays than they were 20+ years ago. Add to that the fact that training techniques and tactics are more advanced and I would suggest Messi has a lot more to deal with than Pele and co ever did.


No way:rolleyes: we can compare strikers of 2014 with the past but not the defenders - the likes of SantaMaria, Camacho, Rugerri, Gentile, Fachetti, Baresi, Koeman, Costacurta, Kholer, Maldini, Blanc. Beckenbauer gets a mentuion too as he played sweeper on some occasiion.

The oldest guard of defenders prodcued some of the all time greats that most modern equivalents dont hold a candle too- then you can add the fact that referrees would not protect the likes of messi and co then as they do now, if he was sent pirouetting to the floor, hed get no direct free kick. hed have to learn to take a few elbows and kicks for dinner if he wanted to play in 70s and 80s.
Reply 55
Original post by EatMyJunk
No way:rolleyes: we can compare strikers of 2014 with the past but not the defenders - the likes of SantaMaria, Camacho, Rugerri, Gentile, Fachetti, Baresi, Koeman, Costacurta, Kholer, Maldini, Blanc. Beckenbauer gets a mentuion too as he played sweeper on some occasiion.


All you have done is list defenders, some of whom played at the same time as Messi.
Original post by The Assassin
^While he may not be the candidate for best ever, Ronaldinho is the most naturally talented player out there tbh (at least one of them -- very high on the list)


Ronaldinho at his best was just absurd :coma:



People like to look back at Zidane as if he was untouchable. :lol:
Reply 57
Original post by pane123
All you have done is list defenders, some of whom played at the same time as Messi.


only maldini and maybe blanc played in messis time- and if so did at age of 37+ way way past their prime. the others listed all range for 1960s-1990. name an all time great international centre back that has played in last 5 years
Reply 58
Original post by EatMyJunk
only maldini and maybe blanc played in messis time- and if so did at age of 37+ way way past their prime. the others listed all range for 1960s-1990. name an all time great international centre back that has played in last 5 years


Costacurta did, too.

If Man City achieve the success that everyone expects them to, then I suspect Kompany will be seen as an all time great. Few players can boast a trophy haul like Gerard Pique's and I guess you could say the same for Sergio Ramos, although I will concede his success belies his ability. Thiago Silva is a superb defender, too, and could go down as an all time great if Brazil are successful at the World Cup.

Why was Cannavaro not on your list?
Original post by Malevolent
Ronaldinho at his best was just absurd :coma:



People like to look back at Zidane as if he was untouchable. :lol:


My favourite player to this day. Absolutely magnificent :moon:
(edited 10 years ago)

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