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Jobless PhDs

Was just reading some interesting articles and news and came across these two and about how people with PhDs may not be as fortuitous with regards to employment as believed. Could it be that with the increase in PhDs there just isn't enough positions in research available? or is it just the good ol' recession?

The second link is a bit older, but not too old though. Anyways, what do you all think? thoughts...

http://phys.org/news/2014-01-academia-jobless-phds.html


http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/blog/2012/aug/03/academic-job-seeking-and-post-doc-unemployment
Reply 1
Well... i found it interesting... :tongue:
Reply 2
Original post by aranexus
Well... i found it interesting... :tongue:


I'm just reading through that first article, and you are right. It's very interesting. I've noticed this trend a while ago. There is a video on youtube of a guy with two degrees who lives in the streets of Boston, because he can't even affort some sort of accomodation.

But I think there is more to employment than knowledge, and even wider skill sets, as the article suggests when talking about broadening the curriculum. I feel like finding a job isn't about how intelligent or skilled you are, but about how you present those assets. Many people having spent years in academia don't have the experience that others may do in the jobs market. Connections matter too, and this is why more and more universities are focusing on career-oriented issues, rather than just the purely academic side of things.
Reply 3
Original post by dreamer959
I'm just reading through that first article, and you are right. It's very interesting. I've noticed this trend a while ago. There is a video on youtube of a guy with two degrees who lives in the streets of Boston, because he can't even affort some sort of accomodation.

But I think there is more to employment than knowledge, and even wider skill sets, as the article suggests when talking about broadening the curriculum. I feel like finding a job isn't about how intelligent or skilled you are, but about how you present those assets. Many people having spent years in academia don't have the experience that others may do in the jobs market. Connections matter too, and this is why more and more universities are focusing on career-oriented issues, rather than just the purely academic side of things.

Yeah, i agree. I thought more people might find it interesting as the consensus on tsr seems to be that if you do a degree/PhD in anything no matter what you'll find employment in the field you desire..
TSR is fairly blinkered in regard to prospects of any degree, although I had thought the postgraduates were a bit more realistic in their prospects.

All I'll say is what I was told at the end of my undergraduate degree: if you want to do a PhD you had better do it for the love of the subject because an academic career (let alone tenure track) is unlikely.
It has always has been like this. There were never enough jobs in academia for all those doing PhDs. In the 1930s it was common for private-school teachers to have PhDs - because no-one else would employ them.

And even now, outside of STEM subjects, the demand in industry just isn't there to absorb any 'spares' who don't manage to snare a rare job in academia.

Anyone doing a PhD in an Arts subject now, thinking that that will make any difference to their jobs prospects really is off with the fairies.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by aranexus
Yeah, i agree. I thought more people might find it interesting as the consensus on tsr seems to be that if you do a degree/PhD in anything no matter what you'll find employment in the field you desire..


This is soooo untrue. My uncle is a lawyer in the States, and although they do target certain schools, and people who have particular qualifications (so one might think that a PhD would make you stand out), he once told me that the moment an interviewee comes through the door, it takes him about a minute or less to figure out if they'll get the job.

This isn't really related to academia as such, but I do feel that people see the world only through the prism of their qualifications they have on paper :rolleyes:
Reply 7
Original post by Doc.Daneeka
TSR is fairly blinkered in regard to prospects of any degree, although I had thought the postgraduates were a bit more realistic in their prospects.

All I'll say is what I was told at the end of my undergraduate degree: if you want to do a PhD you had better do it for the love of the subject because an academic career (let alone tenure track) is unlikely.


I definitely agree with this, unless your subject is a highly sought after one, or unless you happen to be a one percenter..
Reply 8
The usual requirement for most graduate jobs is a 2:1 degree and some kind of experience. Your average PhD student has a 2:1 degree and no full-time experience; your average regular graduate by the same age will have a 2:1 degree and 4-5 years full-time working experience, probably including several promotions. Unless the role is highly technical/specialised, the fact that you have a PhD is unlikely to sway the recruiter in your favour... unfortunately in this job market, as long as you meet the minimum academic standard, experience is what counts. I say this as someone who would have loved to do a PhD in my arts subject but didn't because it would have been career suicide.
Reply 9
The minimum requirement to be a scientist is almost always a PhD. And even then you have to be prepared to go into industry or into a different field because there aren't enough jobs in academia.

I don't have the urge to become an academic, industry is what I'm aiming for. However, it is slightly annoying that the general consensus is that STEM subjects will get you a job when actually, there aren't even enough STEM jobs to go around!

There isn't much point in doing a PhD in an arts/social science subject unless you're doing it for love of education.

Really hoping I can find a relevant job after my PhD in molecular bio...otherwise I'd be the most qualified shelf stacker ever :biggrin:
Reply 10
Original post by dreamer959
This is soooo untrue. My uncle is a lawyer in the States, and although they do target certain schools, and people who have particular qualifications (so one might think that a PhD would make you stand out), he once told me that the moment an interviewee comes through the door, it takes him about a minute or less to figure out if they'll get the job.

This isn't really related to academia as such, but I do feel that people see the world only through the prism of their qualifications they have on paper :rolleyes:


What i'm saying is soooo untrue? or what people on tsr think is soooo untrue?
Original post by dreamer959
This is soooo untrue. My uncle is a lawyer in the States


What has this got to do with employment prospects for British PhD students in Britain?
Original post by returnmigrant
What has this got to do with employment prospects for British PhD students in Britain?


Someone mentioned the fact that people with PhDs seem to think that their qualifications are a gateway to any jobs they want, but what I tried to show was that qualifications are really not everything. Of course, being an attorney is hardly relatable to academia, but it's just an illustration of the point that it isn't enough to throw prestigious degrees from prestigious schools at people to get what you want. Does that make sense now?


Anyone doing a PhD in an Arts subject now, thinking that that will make any difference to their jobs prospects really is off with the fairies.


Well it makes some difference in that with it you are able to apply for academic jobs that you weren't able to before. Your chances of landing one might be slim, but they are still better than 0%. So, yes, it does make a difference to your job prospects to do a PhD. If you're talking about non academic jobs only then, no, it doesn't make much of a difference materially speaking (posts aren't going to ask for an English PhD, for example)...and I've never met anyone who thought it would; but doing a PhD still probably makes you a much more competent applicant than you were before doing one.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by moutonfou
The usual requirement for most graduate jobs is a 2:1 degree and some kind of experience. Your average PhD student has a 2:1 degree and no full-time experience; your average regular graduate by the same age will have a 2:1 degree and 4-5 years full-time working experience, probably including several promotions. Unless the role is highly technical/specialised, the fact that you have a PhD is unlikely to sway the recruiter in your favour... unfortunately in this job market, as long as you meet the minimum academic standard, experience is what counts. I say this as someone who would have loved to do a PhD in my arts subject but didn't because it would have been career suicide.


Science PhDs might be different to Arts PhDs but only somebody who knew absolutely nothing about what a PhD actually is wouldn't count it as work related experience. You have to learn and do so many things by yourself with minimal help during a PhD, you have to be utterly responsible for your own time and work and you actually have to produce something worthwhile at the end of it. More often than not you'll have pretty extensive experience of working in groups and presenting your work. Most PhDs will do quite a bit of teaching or project supervision as well.

I had to teach myself computer programming during my PhD. Not to mention, that almost by definition, you have to become a world expert in your, admittedly incredibly narrow, field.

Academic jobs are different to industry or other graduate jobs. Academia jobs are tough because there's way more PhDs than posts and a lot of PhD graduates want these posts.

I think PhD graduates may find it difficult to 'sell' the skills and experience they have because they simply don't understand how little most people know about what you do during a PhD and how you have way more responsibility for your work than 99% of people in 'normal jobs'. When I started applying for jobs, I thought it would be quite obvious what kind of experience I had from my PhD, to most recruiters, it really isn't.

I did a PhD and am now working. Although the skills and demands are different, I seriously doubt the majority of jobs would challenge or give someone the same experience as doing a PhD.
Reply 15
Original post by aranexus
Yeah, i agree. I thought more people might find it interesting as the consensus on tsr seems to be that if you do a degree/PhD in anything no matter what you'll find employment in the field you desire..


The people who do a PhD and still can't find a job haven't networked enough or are limiting their job search somehow.

There are enough Unis and research institutions out there seriously!

Also as if that guy thought he'd just fall into a job within 3 months :s
(edited 10 years ago)

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