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Why the British are not aiming for professional job?
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Original post by CompSciTeacher
I'd regard a 2:2 in a STEM subject higher than a 1st in a non STEM subject unless that non STEM subject was law or architecture.
STEM is very vague, since science can encompass social sciences, which includes sociology. And I, personally, would rather have no legs and a 1st in history or linguistics than a 2:ii in sociology..
Original post by KingStannis
You can do humanities in your own time, because humanities are useless; they're useless because you can do them in your own time.
I'm afraid you'd have to be a highly sophisticated STEM student to understand the deep logical intricacies of that argument
I'm afraid you'd have to be a highly sophisticated STEM student to understand the deep logical intricacies of that argument
Yes you can. STEM should always come first and you should always have some STEM in your education.
You seem to be unable to understand the concept of a side course and a hobby and how one differentiates to the other. The other poster referred to doing computer literacy qualifications thus I said it was fine.
Qualification != hobby
STEM + humanities 50/50 = fine
STEM BA/BSc + humanities as a hobby = fine
STEM on its own = fine
humanities + STEM on the side as another qualification = fine
humanities on their own = don't agree with it as theres no STEM
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Not many people have access to these good families where they are supported. Schools should be preparing the young of today for the real world and life because plenty of parents simply do not care. Okay, thats another issue entirely which falls under politics but by not serving these children the vital skills they need we are in a way neglecting them.
Not many people have access to these good families where they are supported. Schools should be preparing the young of today for the real world and life because plenty of parents simply do not care. Okay, thats another issue entirely which falls under politics but by not serving these children the vital skills they need we are in a way neglecting them.
They don't, no.
So how do you propose people who haven't been supported to then be able to sufficiently cope with a STEM degree, or a combined degree?
The OU is not the only university to offer combined degrees, by the way. Durham*, Newcastle, Exeter and Liverpool do. Possibly others. The Scottish system is also broader and can allow the blending of science and arts in initial years.
*Admittedly Durham's have separate degrees for arts and sciences, but it's still possible to take a reasonable number of arts modules in the Sciences degree and vice versa. There's also the Natural Sciences programme.
2. I think its fundamental that people learn to logically debate with reasoning
I'm still puzzled by this. My debating in this thread has been poor, I admit. It's a Friday night. I'm tired. Perhaps you are also. But your debating skills need a lot of work. Some arguments you have put forward appear to be circular.
And you still haven't explained how humanities graduates, who are required to engage with topics and ideas, to debate with peers, to write essays and argue a point of view, don't have sufficient debating and verbal reasoning skills.
Logic is actually a core feature of any good Philosophy degree.
Original post by Jooooshy
STEM is very vague, since science can encompass social sciences, which includes sociology. And I, personally, would rather have no legs and a 1st in history or linguistics than a 2:ii in sociology..
Sociology is not truly STEM. That was made up by politicians who had a degree in sociology to make them feel more important and worthy. Political science isn't STEM either. Its not a true science. Not in the eyes of true scientists anyway. Most scientists I know don't regard social sciences as true sciences.
Don't let them fool you.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Jobs was a designer so thats wrong. Im referring to points way before the creation of the iPod.
Well, yes, he's known as "the master of design" or whatever, and had role to play in designing the early Macintosh computers. But I feel his influence and talent, though considerable, is overplayed often at the expense of "better", but not as famous, people. But it remains that calling him the greatest designer or creator is still highly subjective.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Yes you can. STEM should always come first and you should always have some STEM in your education.
You seem to be unable to understand the concept of a side course and a hobby and how one differentiates to the other. The other poster referred to doing computer literacy qualifications thus I said it was fine.
Qualification != hobby
STEM + humanities 50/50 = fine
STEM BA/BSc + humanities as a hobby = fine
STEM on its own = fine
humanities + STEM on the side as another qualification = fine
humanities on their own = don't agree with it as theres no STEM
You seem to be unable to understand the concept of a side course and a hobby and how one differentiates to the other. The other poster referred to doing computer literacy qualifications thus I said it was fine.
Qualification != hobby
STEM + humanities 50/50 = fine
STEM BA/BSc + humanities as a hobby = fine
STEM on its own = fine
humanities + STEM on the side as another qualification = fine
humanities on their own = don't agree with it as theres no STEM
You don't seem to understand the concept of an argument as apposed to an assumption and are conclusion that a fundamentally the same.
Original post by River85
They don't, no.
So how do you propose people who haven't been supported to then be able to sufficiently cope with a STEM degree, or a combined degree?
The OU is not the only university to offer combined degrees, by the way. Durham*, Newcastle, Exeter and Liverpool do. Possibly others. The Scottish system is also broader and can allow the blending of science and arts in initial years.
*Admittedly Durham's have separate degrees for arts and sciences, but it's still possible to take a reasonable number of arts modules in the Sciences degree and vice versa. There's also the Natural Sciences programme.
So how do you propose people who haven't been supported to then be able to sufficiently cope with a STEM degree, or a combined degree?
The OU is not the only university to offer combined degrees, by the way. Durham*, Newcastle, Exeter and Liverpool do. Possibly others. The Scottish system is also broader and can allow the blending of science and arts in initial years.
*Admittedly Durham's have separate degrees for arts and sciences, but it's still possible to take a reasonable number of arts modules in the Sciences degree and vice versa. There's also the Natural Sciences programme.
Fair enough. I think the problem starts at the top as well as the bottom. Politics plus those in schools. Working together and assessing whats right for the development and education of someone and what skills are needed in an ever evolving world are key to any success we wish to obtain.
In regards to the combined degrees, thats great. It seems some universities agree and are waking up to the true value of STEM subjects.
And you still haven't explained how humanities graduates, who are required to engage with topics and ideas, to debate with peers, to write essays and argue a point of view, don't have sufficient debating and verbal reasoning skills.
Debating alone won't change your mindset to the degree that a STEM subject will. I've been on law society meets with friends in university. Granted, you get your intellectual people, clued up and know their subject. You also get the plonkers who haven't got a clue who cannot construe an argument to save his/her life. Any basic computer scientist will be able to construe a solid argument because of their foundation in logic.
Logic is actually a core feature of any good Philosophy degree.
'Good philosophy degree' - logic
The worst Computer Science degree at London Met is guaranteed to include logic. Every computer scientist needs to know logic. Its key to algorithms, programming, AI techniques and so on. Its basically the way you have to think to be at one with the computer because computers are logical themselves, 1's and 0's, true and false.
I have never met a computer scientist or mathematician who cant debate or argue well. Most trolls online, clever ones too, are often computer scientists or maths students or students with a background in STEM.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Sociology is not truly STEM. That was made up by politicians who had a degree in sociology to make them feel more important and worthy. Political science isn't STEM either. Its not a true science. Not in the eyes of true scientists anyway. Most scientists I know don't regard social sciences as true sciences.
Don't let them fool you.
Don't let them fool you.
Right. Do you know anything about the history of the social sciences? First I heard that Comte, Durkheim and Weber were politicians.
Sociology is not a "natural science", no. But then I've never come across a politician who has called it a natural science. It is a social science.
Original post by River85
Right. Do you know anything about the history of the social sciences? First I heard that Comte, Durkheim and Weber were politicians.
Sociology is not a "natural science", no. But then I've never come across a politician who has called it a natural science. It is a social science.
Sociology is not a "natural science", no. But then I've never come across a politician who has called it a natural science. It is a social science.
Its not a science at all. Politics is pretty much the anti christ of science. They only classed it as a social science to give it more value. Fact.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Sociology is not truly STEM. That was made up by politicians who had a degree in sociology to make them feel more important and worthy. Political science isn't STEM either. Its not a true science. Not in the eyes of true scientists anyway. Most scientists I know don't regard social sciences as true sciences.
So a 1st in political science is less worthy than a 2:ii in compsci? You're blinded.
True scientists? Most scientists you know? How many scientists do you know?
Don't let them fool you.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Jooooshy
So a 1st in political science is more worthy than a 2:ii in compsci? You're blinded.
No. A 2:ii in Comp Sci is more worthy than a 1st in political science (which isn't really a science).
Im pro STEM. Im not anti STEM.
Learn to read a point.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
]In regards to the combined degrees, thats great. It seems some universities agree and are waking up to the true value of STEM subjects.
No, they aren't.
What they propose is a broader, more liberal arts degree which has more in common with US degrees.
This isn't necessarily "waking up to the true value of STEM subjects", considering there is no pressure, or suggestion, from the university that students ought to chose STEM subjects. As mentioned, Durham actually have specific degrees for Sciences and Arts. It's only possible to take some Arts modules in the Science degree (and vice versa) due to the traditional make up of a Durham degree. It's long, if not always been the case that students can take modules from outside their department.
And some of these degrees have been around for quite a number of years now.
'
Good philosophy degree' - logic
Any philosophy degree will involve developing the skills you have referred to. There's the argument that some degrees are easier and less thorough than others but this is the case for STEM subjects also (even if content is consistent).
I have never met a computer scientist or mathematician who cant debate or argue well. Most trolls online, clever ones too, are often computer scientists or maths students or students with a background in STEM.
Anecdotal evidence again.
I could wipe the floor with my brother (Data Communication Systems/Electrical Engineering), even if he does have a 50k+ a year job. The ability to debate and formulate arguments was not a component of his degree (or certainly not as my degree) and isn't required in his job.
If this thread is anything to go by your skills aren't very strong.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
No. A 2:ii in Comp Sci is less worthy than a 1st in political science (which isn't really a science).
Im pro STEM. Im not anti STEM.
Learn to read a point.
Im pro STEM. Im not anti STEM.
Learn to read a point.
*My post contained a typo which I edited*
No, it's not. It's far from it. I'd like to see some graduate statistics suggesting that people who graduate with a 2:ii in STEM degrees do better than those who graduate with a 1st in political sciences, history or linguistics.
You're an idiot for even creating the partition 'pro-STEM' and 'anti-STEM'. I study computer science myself, but I still understand the value that non-STEM degrees bring to society.
Original post by River85
If this thread is anything to go by your skills aren't very strong.
If this thread is anything to go by your skills aren't very strong.
I could say the same about yourself but you're a moderator and I'd get banned.
Original post by Jooooshy
*My post contained a typo which I edited*
No, it's not. It's far from it. I'd like to see some graduate statistics suggesting that people who graduate with a 2:ii in STEM degrees do better than those who graduate with a 1st in political sciences, history or linguistics.
You're an idiot for even creating the partition 'pro-STEM' and 'anti-STEM'. I study computer science myself, but I still understand the value that non-STEM degrees bring to society.
No, it's not. It's far from it. I'd like to see some graduate statistics suggesting that people who graduate with a 2:ii in STEM degrees do better than those who graduate with a 1st in political sciences, history or linguistics.
You're an idiot for even creating the partition 'pro-STEM' and 'anti-STEM'. I study computer science myself, but I still understand the value that non-STEM degrees bring to society.
Even STEM dropouts do better.
Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs, etc.
They've all done better than people with a 1st in the humanities.
I hope this helps.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Fair enough. I think the problem starts at the top as well as the bottom. Politics plus those in schools. Working together and assessing whats right for the development and education of someone and what skills are needed in an ever evolving world are key to any success we wish to obtain.
In regards to the combined degrees, thats great. It seems some universities agree and are waking up to the true value of STEM subjects.
Debating alone won't change your mindset to the degree that a STEM subject will. I've been on law society meets with friends in university. Granted, you get your intellectual people, clued up and know their subject. You also get the plonkers who haven't got a clue who cannot construe an argument to save his/her life. Any basic computer scientist will be able to construe a solid argument because of their foundation in logic.
'Good philosophy degree' - logic
The worst Computer Science degree at London Met is guaranteed to include logic. Every computer scientist needs to know logic. Its key to algorithms, programming, AI techniques and so on. Its basically the way you have to think to be at one with the computer because computers are logical themselves, 1's and 0's, true and false.
I have never met a computer scientist or mathematician who cant debate or argue well. Most trolls online, clever ones too, are often computer scientists or maths students or students with a background in STEM.
In regards to the combined degrees, thats great. It seems some universities agree and are waking up to the true value of STEM subjects.
Debating alone won't change your mindset to the degree that a STEM subject will. I've been on law society meets with friends in university. Granted, you get your intellectual people, clued up and know their subject. You also get the plonkers who haven't got a clue who cannot construe an argument to save his/her life. Any basic computer scientist will be able to construe a solid argument because of their foundation in logic.
'Good philosophy degree' - logic
The worst Computer Science degree at London Met is guaranteed to include logic. Every computer scientist needs to know logic. Its key to algorithms, programming, AI techniques and so on. Its basically the way you have to think to be at one with the computer because computers are logical themselves, 1's and 0's, true and false.
I have never met a computer scientist or mathematician who cant debate or argue well. Most trolls online, clever ones too, are often computer scientists or maths students or students with a background in STEM.
I'm just speechless-- you must be a troll.Original post by KingStannisI'm just speechless-- you must be a troll.
I'm just speechless-- you must be a troll.Why? Because I have a different opinion to you? See, now if you had the ability to be rational and logical and see the argument from someone else's point of view, you wouldn't have called me a troll. You'd have just agreed to disagree.
Original post by CompSciTeacher
Even STEM dropouts do better.
Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs, etc.
They've all done better than people with a 1st in the humanities.
I hope this helps.
Zuckerberg, Gates, Jobs, etc.
They've all done better than people with a 1st in the humanities.
I hope this helps.
This favours STEM degrees as much as it favours dropping out of university.
You bring shame upon all computer science students.
Original post by manty
clear troll
Original post by Jooooshy
This favours STEM degrees as much as it favours dropping out of university.
You bring shame upon all computer science students.
You bring shame upon all computer science students.
You still haven't answered the question or attempted to do so.
Why have those from STEM backgrounds done better then?
Im going to ignore your insult because I'm not a child who wants to partake in such activities.
The richest man in the world is in the telecoms industry. He's closely followed by someone from the computing industry. The youngest richest in the world is in the computing industry.
Why? Those from STEM backgrounds excel. It's just the truth.
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