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Poll: Why do we need a Queen? Is it time for the UK to become a republic?

Poll

Why do we need a Queen?

From a sociological perspective, we need a Queen because she gives our society something to share and thus promotes social solidarity. The glamorous royal ceremonies make people feel like they belong to such great nation. Makes us feel that we are still special. She also holds the commonwealth together.
But what has the royal family done for us to be proud of? (now don't highlight this line and attack me). Why can't our national heroes be people like Bevan or George Orwell? They are the ones who made Britain a great country.
It strikes my mind that these values are not real. The experience of having an Empire was never really pleasant. Not just the British empire but also the French, Portuguese, Roman, Persian etc. I don't see any reason to explain why.
Is it fair to pay 60 million pounds to the Royal Family? Is it fair to have an unelected head of the state? Is it fair that that position is only granted to one by birth? All I am saying is that it is not a righteous to spend public money on keeping the Queen, neither it is rational to keep her. An old woman wearing a 1million pound crown and talking austerity!!! Does that make sense?
Ouh yea, now i get it:for tourism. I have never been convinced more than this. All the Asians, Spanish and American come here exclusively to rub their faces on the closed gates of the Buckingham Palace. What a great value for money.
http://www.republic.org.uk
(edited 10 years ago)

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Reply 1
You make the mistake of believing democratic republicanism actually reflects the will of the people. The monarchy prevents dictatorship because the army are automatically on their side but there would be international outrage if they ever actually tried to be dictatorial themselves. If we had a partisan president we were changing every 5 years that would be more prone to dictatorship because most other countries believe a "democratically elected" (ha!) president has a mandate to rule so he gets more leeway. Also the monarchy already has its power, it doesn't feel it needs to seek more like a greasy-pole-climbing, back-stabbing professional politician would do.

Of course it's far from perfect, but it's stupid to get annoyed at the monarchy just because it's openly an elitist system. Supposed democracy is just as elitist and it causes a lot of damage when people assume democracy is actually fair.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 2
Original post by scrotgrot
You make the mistake of believing democratic republicanism actually reflects the will of the people. The monarchy prevents dictatorship because the army are automatically on their side but there would be international outrage if they ever actually tried to be dictatorial themselves. If we had a partisan president we were changing every 5 years that would be more prone to dictatorship because most other countries believe a "democratically elected" (ha!) president has a mandate to rule so he gets more leeway. Also the monarchy already has its power, it doesn't feel it needs to seek more like a greasy-pole-climbing, back-stabbing professional politician would do.

Of course it's far from perfect, but it's stupid to get annoyed at the monarchy just because it's openly an elitist system. Supposed democracy is just as elitist and it causes a lot of damage when people assume democracy is actually fair.

You certainly got a very interesting point there. I never looked at it this way. However, I am sure that there are other methods to secure democracy. If we had a president and a prime minister, then usually the president would have very little power. As long as we don't allow one person to have all the power, we can protect our democracy. Furthermore, free press has a similar role in protecting democracy. Right now, according to the constitution, the Queen has the right to remove the Prime minster and appoint her own. I know she will never do it but something needs to be done here. It is just stupid.
Reply 3
Original post by arminb
You certainly got a very interesting point there. I never looked at it this way. However, I am sure that there are other methods to secure democracy. If we had a president and a prime minister, then usually the president would have very little power. As long as we don't allow one person to have all the power, we can protect our democracy. Furthermore, free press has a similar role in protecting democracy. Right now, according to the constitution, the Queen has the right to remove the Prime minster and appoint her own. I know she will never do it but something needs to be done here. It is just stupid.


Yeah I know but the thing is the Americans and the French were making a new country from scratch, they had to build stuff in to divide power up and checks and balances and stuff. It's the only way to do it when you've got a massive gang of power-hungry people with a virgin racecourse ahead, champing at the bit waiting for the starting gate to open. The problem though is that any system which isn't undergoing constant revision gets co-opted by the elites over time as they work out how to game the system, so that while no one person holds a huge amount of power, as a whole they are still oppressing people with it, even without necessarily trying to.

Unlike the French and Americans we have the force of tradition on our side, it gives us stability, we can be sure that the Queen won't do anything too crazy because the monarchy is so old and entrenched and it has a long-term view, the Queen could seize power but she knows it would be at the expense of the family as a whole. The filial bonds and the weight of history mean she doesn't want to be the reckless one who buggered it up for everyone else. I understand how it's bad that she could do stuff like seize power or dismiss the government or use the army against the people, but in the few centuries since the democratisation of politics and the legal system, we think sufficiently complicated rules will make a system perfect and fair, we've forgotten that every system requires some element of trust or social contract to uphold it. It's like if someone decided to put cameras on the front of every building in the country to fine you if you dropped litter, just because there was no effective way of ensuring the litter-dropping enforcement system was watertight. But no, it's cool, the odd sign, bin, street sweeping and a sense of civic duty combine to form an unwritten but good enough social contract that people don't abuse it en masse.

OK you can argue about the extent of specific powers and say maybe she shouldn't be able to just dismiss the prime minister, but in the long term it wouldn't change anything other than to limit the candidate pool of prime ministers to people the Queen (and other powerful people who influence her) already approve of. Also looking long-term the power of the monarchy has been in decline ever since the civil war and the various constitutional crises that followed, so it's not like this is an active threat.
(edited 10 years ago)
I'd prefer a Republic to a monarchy.
Reply 5
All countries need a Head of State, whether presidential system or parliamentary (people who argue we can do without one and given the HoS powers to the PM are utterly deluded)

In a parliamentary system it is important that the HoS is impartial above the Executive and Legislature, and avoids as much as possible getting involved in political fighting.

Therefore, their democratic credentials have to be deliberately undermined.

Therefore, they cannot be elected.

The Head of State however must be someone of considerable respect and standing to function as a valued national symbol, representative and guarantor of the constitution.

Therefore, if possible, a constitutional monarchy where it exists should be preserved as long as it carries out these functions well.

Constitutional monarchy is the least worst option.
Original post by scrotgrot
QFA



Why can't there be more people like you in monarchy/republic debates! That is exactly why we need the Queen. Well, that and tourism.
Reply 7
I don't see how either would be different and life goes on as neither systems allow you to do anything differently.

France is a republic and it has a sleezeball of a president aka head of state. Rather the queen any day than an elected sleezeball of a dickhead as a president.
Ideally I'd prefer a republic now as well, but it's a pretty low priority. If radical change came a republic would come with it.
A constitutional monarchy is the greatest guarantor of democracy.
It's absurd that in the 21st century we are still selecting our head of state by birthright.
Reply 11
I don't see an issue, kinda like having a queen- see her as quite quaint :3.
I'd gladly sacrifice the 60p a year in taxes it costs per person to maintain the monarchy and ignore any moral questions about privilege and so forth if it means we get the occasional extra bank holiday when there is a wedding or a jubilee or something.
Original post by scrotgrot
Yeah I know but the thing is the Americans and the French were making a new country from scratch, they had to build stuff in to divide power up and checks and balances and stuff. It's the only way to do it when you've got a massive gang of power-hungry people with a virgin racecourse ahead, champing at the bit waiting for the starting gate to open. The problem though is that any system which isn't undergoing constant revision gets co-opted by the elites over time as they work out how to game the system, so that while no one person holds a huge amount of power, as a whole they are still oppressing people with it, even without necessarily trying to.

Unlike the French and Americans we have the force of tradition on our side, it gives us stability, we can be sure that the Queen won't do anything too crazy because the monarchy is so old and entrenched and it has a long-term view, the Queen could seize power but she knows it would be at the expense of the family as a whole. The filial bonds and the weight of history mean she doesn't want to be the reckless one who buggered it up for everyone else. I understand how it's bad that she could do stuff like seize power or dismiss the government or use the army against the people, but in the few centuries since the democratisation of politics and the legal system, we think sufficiently complicated rules will make a system perfect and fair, we've forgotten that every system requires some element of trust or social contract to uphold it. It's like if someone decided to put cameras on the front of every building in the country to fine you if you dropped litter, just because there was no effective way of ensuring the litter-dropping enforcement system was watertight. But no, it's cool, the odd sign, bin, street sweeping and a sense of civic duty combine to form an unwritten but good enough social contract that people don't abuse it en masse.

OK you can argue about the extent of specific powers and say maybe she shouldn't be able to just dismiss the prime minister, but in the long term it wouldn't change anything other than to limit the candidate pool of prime ministers to people the Queen (and other powerful people who influence her) already approve of. Also looking long-term the power of the monarchy has been in decline ever since the civil war and the various constitutional crises that followed, so it's not like this is an active threat.


This. Although the Queen has quite a bit of power in theory, it's massively curtailed behind the scenes through constitutional conventions, and speaking realistically it's never going to be used barring some massive crisis/civil war etc, in which case the power might well come in handy. Throw in the fact that the royal family does generate a hell of a lot of money (not just from tourism but also from the Crown estates and the like), far more than it costs the taxpayer, and there's no good reason to justify the considerable expense and difficulty it would take to change the constitutional structure.
I like the Queen more for the history than anything else.
Reply 15
You didn't include a poll option for

Republic now

The tourist argument is a joke - they come to see the places, not the people, heck without them we could open up the palace all year round and get even more tourism

The 60p per person per year is a lie - It doesn't include the cost of protecting them

The money from the crown estate is bull**** - The money from that is legally the property of the state

Tradition is a total non-argument - Burning witches and putting Black people in chains is tradition, doesn't make it right

I am a citizen not a subject :cool:

Original post by Plainview
You didn't include a poll option for



That's actually quite cute, I would probably let it slide if she was Queen.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 17
Original post by Plainview
You didn't include a poll option for


You mean brainwashing ? That couldnt be an option.
Reply 18
Can I be the next king?
I'd like to point out that even without tourism money the monarch is giving a lot of money to the country due to a deal struck between I think George V and parliament, that all profits from his land would go to the country in return for a yearly salary, this deal is still standing and the Queen is perfectly capable of taking these lands back whenever she pleases, which by the way make more money than we pay the crown, so why get rid of them if they are virtually giving money to the country.

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