Swiss vote to invalidate EU free movement deal and put quotas in place

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A little(very) of topic here, but why must we persist with the notion of the preservation of the nation state? Why must we preserve nation states when they are no longer benefitiing human kind as a whole? Wouldn't it be better to scrap the failing ideal in favour of uniting the whole of humanity under a single banner, to work together, for the betterment of all as opposed to a select few?

Who is "we" and why do you presume to speak for "human kind as a whole"?

Reply 21

mojojojo101

Original post by scrotgrot

I agree that this needs to happen for us to reach a transcendent state of governance but you can't expect rich countries to throw away their borders, those protectorates have done very well out of inequality and it's in the interest of neither their leaders nor their people to level living standards to a global extent.

I agree with you, you won't get the structures that benefit most from the system to denounce it, that is why the revolution must be from an organic base, a clear and obvious change in peoples emphasis on bettering themselves to that of an emphasis on the bettering of all. It is why Communistic revolutions have failed in the past, they have as Zizek puts it, changed peoples reality, but not affected their dreams. Once that change has been affected, which admittedly will be a huge struggle, the position of the nation state and national governments will be untenable, leaving room for a truly united human kind.

Original post by thesabbath

Who is "we" and why do you presume to speak for "human kind as a whole"?

I don't pretend to speak for anyone, this is just my view on how to make the planet a better place for not only human kind, but for all Earth's inhabitants.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 22

thesabbath

Original post by mojojojo101

I don't pretend to speak for anyone, this is just my view on how to make the planet a better place for not only human kind, but for all Earth's inhabitants.

Who do you imagine will regulate this Red utopia? You're going to need to suppress an enormous amount of freedom fighters ie anyone who disagrees with it, so what good will that have done?

Reply 23

mojojojo101

Original post by thesabbath

This is pipe dream stuff, Commies since the dawn of Marx have been arguing "we just need more time", callously writing off the millions upon millions of deaths on their watch as "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs".

Who do you imagine will regulate this Red utopia? You're going to need to suppress an enormous amount of freedom fighters ie anyone who disagrees with it, so what good will that have done?

I don't actually think you read what I wrote, but I'm not that surprised... someone suggests that Capitalism and Consumerism aren't perfect and they get shot down for daring to challenge the bourgois oligarchy that rules over us, completely uninterested in anything but hoarding more and more stuff for themselves (NB. They are not neccesarily the bad guys, they are just a different shade of victim).

I never said 'we need more time', I said it would be a struggle, I also never said anything about breaking eggs, I simply stated that in order to bring about real change you must first bring about a revolution of conciousness to free people from the slavery in which our capitalist system traps them (NB. I'm not claiming to be better than others for having realised this, I am still as trapped as anyone else). This process may well be painful, to give up a fanciful delusion always is, but it is entirely neccesary if we want to continue to grow as a species.

I'm also not going to be drawn into an argument about regulation, et, etc, it's not the focus of my argument and is franly irrelevant, I have no desire to write a party manifesto, only to propose a manner in which we can move from out current failing world of greed, innequality and war to one of prosperity, peace and freedom for all.

Reply 24

caravaggio2

Go on. Be honest mojo.
Your'e tapping on your 2 grand laptop whilst sitting on your Louis 16th bed in your parents 6 bedroom house in a gated community aren't you.

Reply 25

Jefferson Disk

Original post by caravaggio2

I don't recall the percentage of foreign immigrant/migrants in Switzerland, but read a while ago that it is relatively high. 20% comes to mind but I may be wrong. Does anybody know the figure? Is that 3x what we have? Perhaps we would see it differently if we were in the same position more people would be calling for something similar. With 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people and people starting to protest on the streets about this decision, they may be about to find out the disadvantage of such high gun ownership. :eek:

That's right, the percentage of foreign people living in Switzerland is about 20%. It is that high because of the very nature of Switzerland, their position concerning immigration has always been xenophobic. For instance, it takes 12 years of continuous indefinite leave to remain in order to qualify for a Swiss passport, while only half that time in the UK. Consequently the proportion of naturalisation is very low, while the percentage of immigrants remains high because they don't qualify for a passport even after living and paying taxes there for more than a decade.

The unemployment in Switzerland is less than 4%, it has a strong economic growth, it is a wealthy, crime free society. There were no grounds for this result, other than a xenophobic reason. It was a vote against highly skilled Germans/Austrians/French/Italians, some that already live and work in Swiss banking, pharmaceutical, research sectors and others that cross the border on a daily basis to their workplace. Take for example the Italian speaking canton of Ticino, those guys most certainly cannot stand the idea that Italians come over the border from Italy and 'take Swiss jobs'.

Switzerland is very divided on the cause, after all the proposition was adopted marginally by only 50.3% of the votes. All of the French speaking cantons have overwhelmingly voted against the reintroduction of immigration restrictions, while the German part (plus the Italian canton) voted in favour. Further the country is divided between the cities and the country. The irony is that the cities are by far more subjected to new immigrants, yet they have rejected the proposition, while the farmers voted for restricting free movement.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Vote_results.html?cid=37851262

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 26

Renner

Good, its about time someone told the EU to go **** itself

The downfall of the EU would be worth it just to see the smug look wiped of the faces of the eurocrats

Reply 27

Jefferson Disk

Original post by Renner

Good, its about time someone told the EU to go **** itself

The downfall of the EU would be worth it just to see the smug look wiped of the faces of the eurocrats

It would very much be the other way around. The Swiss had it too good for too long.

I would rather see your face when you need 27 different visas and currencies while travelling around Europe.

Reply 28

Yi-Ge-Ningderen

Original post by Jefferson Disk

It would very much be the other way around. The Swiss had it too good for too long.

I would rather see your face when you need 27 different visas and currencies while travelling around Europe.

What people like you don't understand is that the EU is not needed for travel. For example, you can just turn up in Hong Kong without a visa, and they will stamp your passport. It is just the scare mongers like you that think with out the EU you wont be able to vacation anyway. You are being silly.

Reply 29

Yi-Ge-Ningderen

Original post by Renner

Good, its about time someone told the EU to go **** itself<br />
<br />
The downfall of the EU would be worth it just to see the smug look wiped of the faces of the eurocrats

<br />
<br />

I am looking forward to that day! Although I fear that the way things are going, an armed rebellion will be the only way to get rid of them idiots.

Reply 30

Born_Survivor

Original post by Jefferson Disk

It would very much be the other way around. The Swiss had it too good for too long.

I would rather see your face when you need 27 different visas and currencies while travelling around Europe.

Oh no I will have to get a visa. Well that's it you've convinced me it's worth giving up democracy for so I don't have to fill a daft form in!

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 31

Ace123

Original post by Born_Survivor

Oh no I will have to get a visa. Well that's it you've convinced me it's worth giving up democracy for so I don't have to fill a daft form in!

Posted from TSR Mobile

exactly having to get a visa is the most ridiculous argument I have heard! Almost all countries use visa's e.g. USA, Aus, Asia etc and all manage perfectly ridiculous to suggest Swiss should give up all democratic principles because they have to fill out a form sounds like people are running out of arguments

Reply 32

Renner

Original post by Jefferson Disk

I would rather see your face when you need 27 different visas and currencies while travelling around Europe.

That's an incredibly selfish argument, the EU seeking to undermine democratic governments is not counteracted by making it easier to go on holiday. If exchanging currency puts you off traveling then you shouldn't be traveling in the first place...