Why do we have to pay high tuition fees if we only get minimal support from teaching
academics. I think it's unfair, I know that we have to study independently bla bla, but it would be better if we had more contact time and more support from tutors that we pay, rather than having to struggle on our own.
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1. That's how much it costs to run your degree, if you're in an essay based subject. If you do a STEM subject, it costs a lot more, but the government subsidises part of the cost. It's always cost this much (in real terms) to run degrees, but it's just that the government has reduced the direct subsidies for teaching drastically.
2. It's not just about the teaching time, it's about all the other things your uni provides - libraries, teaching facilities, bursaries, security staff, mowing the lawn - you name it, it has to be paid for somehow.
3. This is university, not school. You are expected to be an independent learner. Spoonfeeding will do you no good in the longrun
4. You're not a customer, quit acting like one. You're paying for the opportunity to learn a lot - not to have everything handed to you on a plate. It's like the difference between buying an airline ticket to Spain, or finding yourself sat in the cockpit of a plane with enough fuel to get you to Spain. One's easier, but the other's a hell of a lot more fun and rewarding, but if you don't seize the opportunity to fly, you're going to end up sat on the tarmac for the next three years (this is possibly an overstretched metaphor).
5. Life is unfair.
2. It's not just about the teaching time, it's about all the other things your uni provides - libraries, teaching facilities, bursaries, security staff, mowing the lawn - you name it, it has to be paid for somehow.
3. This is university, not school. You are expected to be an independent learner. Spoonfeeding will do you no good in the longrun
4. You're not a customer, quit acting like one. You're paying for the opportunity to learn a lot - not to have everything handed to you on a plate. It's like the difference between buying an airline ticket to Spain, or finding yourself sat in the cockpit of a plane with enough fuel to get you to Spain. One's easier, but the other's a hell of a lot more fun and rewarding, but if you don't seize the opportunity to fly, you're going to end up sat on the tarmac for the next three years (this is possibly an overstretched metaphor).
5. Life is unfair.
Original post by Origami Bullets
1. That's how much it costs to run your degree, if you're in an essay based subject. If you do a STEM subject, it costs a lot more, but the government subsidises part of the cost. It's always cost this much (in real terms) to run degrees, but it's just that the government has reduced the direct subsidies for teaching drastically.
2. It's not just about the teaching time, it's about all the other things your uni provides - libraries, teaching facilities, bursaries, security staff, mowing the lawn - you name it, it has to be paid for somehow.
3. This is university, not school. You are expected to be an independent learner. Spoonfeeding will do you no good in the longrun
4. You're not a customer, quit acting like one. You're paying for the opportunity to learn a lot - not to have everything handed to you on a plate. It's like the difference between buying an airline ticket to Spain, or finding yourself sat in the cockpit of a plane with enough fuel to get you to Spain. One's easier, but the other's a hell of a lot more fun and rewarding, but if you don't seize the opportunity to fly, you're going to end up sat on the tarmac for the next three years (this is possibly an overstretched metaphor).
5. Life is unfair.
2. It's not just about the teaching time, it's about all the other things your uni provides - libraries, teaching facilities, bursaries, security staff, mowing the lawn - you name it, it has to be paid for somehow.
3. This is university, not school. You are expected to be an independent learner. Spoonfeeding will do you no good in the longrun
4. You're not a customer, quit acting like one. You're paying for the opportunity to learn a lot - not to have everything handed to you on a plate. It's like the difference between buying an airline ticket to Spain, or finding yourself sat in the cockpit of a plane with enough fuel to get you to Spain. One's easier, but the other's a hell of a lot more fun and rewarding, but if you don't seize the opportunity to fly, you're going to end up sat on the tarmac for the next three years (this is possibly an overstretched metaphor).
5. Life is unfair.
Surely, if every one was an independent learner then there would be no point in going to university. I could easily go to my local library and get books and teach myself, I see no point in wasting £££ just to do the same thing.
Original post by bluebluepurple
Surely, if every one was an independent learner then there would be no point in going to university. I could easily go to my local library and get books and teach myself, I see no point in wasting £££ just to do the same thing.
You're not being completely independent, and it's not all about reading - you're being guided in your learning, you're having your views challenged, your learning in seminars too. You're also being assessed, and you'll leave with the proof of your study that you can't get by spending three years in a council run library and which employers want. You also have facilities available to you that simply aren't available elsewhere. An academic library is very different to a public lending library - you simply don't get the vast majority of the books that are provided in an academic library in a council run library. To give you an idea, I just checked the four compulsory textbooks for one of my modules across all of the libraries in Greater Manchester. The council only owns a copy of one of those books, a book that has more mass appeal than most textbooks, and all copies of that book are currently out on loan. Basically, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Original post by Old_Simon
If Oxbridge charge 9k and provide tutorials then the other unis charging 9k without tutorials must be caning it.
All universities, as far as I am aware, provide tutorials / seminars. It's just a question of how many people are in them. If you're at Oxbridge, it's one or sometimes two. If you're elsewhere, it'll commonly be 10-15.
However, Oxbridge has been complaining for years that they are hemorrhaging money as a result of the tutorial system, though it should be noted that this is far from just being a post-2012 complaint.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/6677998/Funding-cuts-threaten-Oxford-University-tutorial-system.html
Original post by Origami Bullets
You're not being completely independent, and it's not all about reading - you're being guided in your learning, you're having your views challenged, your learning in seminars too. You're also being assessed, and you'll leave with the proof of your study that you can't get by spending three years in a council run library and which employers want. You also have facilities available to you that simply aren't available elsewhere. An academic library is very different to a public lending library - you simply don't get the vast majority of the books that are provided in an academic library in a council run library. To give you an idea, I just checked the four compulsory textbooks for one of my modules across all of the libraries in Greater Manchester. The council only owns a copy of one of those books, a book that has more mass appeal than most textbooks, and all copies of that book are currently out on loan. Basically, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
All universities, as far as I am aware, provide tutorials / seminars. It's just a question of how many people are in them. If you're at Oxbridge, it's one or sometimes two. If you're elsewhere, it'll commonly be 10-15.
However, Oxbridge has been complaining for years that they are hemorrhaging money as a result of the tutorial system, though it should be noted that this is far from just being a post-2012 complaint.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/6677998/Funding-cuts-threaten-Oxford-University-tutorial-system.html
All universities, as far as I am aware, provide tutorials / seminars. It's just a question of how many people are in them. If you're at Oxbridge, it's one or sometimes two. If you're elsewhere, it'll commonly be 10-15.
However, Oxbridge has been complaining for years that they are hemorrhaging money as a result of the tutorial system, though it should be noted that this is far from just being a post-2012 complaint.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/6677998/Funding-cuts-threaten-Oxford-University-tutorial-system.html
Oxbridge also has higher endowments which make up for a greater portion of revenues than tuition according to some stats from Cambridge. They are peanuts when compared to some American unis but are significantly more than other UK unis. Thus they can keep fees down.
Also on a general note I agree with Oragami bullets. If you look at it from the standpoint of lecturers and other academic staff, they feel they are being underpaid and overworked just as it is. A university pays them a pittance to research as well as teach, not just the latter. Thus its not like the academic staff is slacking off and has the time to give more contact hours to students.They are carrying a university's research reputation and their teaching reputation on their backs,
Meanwhile the university has to pay for the salaries of many teachers and researchers, building upkeep, scholarships etc---basically they are sustaining the intellectual and cultural development of whole communities. Not a small task at all.
You really are showing your immaturity here.
Your £9k pays for vastly more than just your classroom time. Think of all the other facilities and services that your Uni provides - from the Library to the Refectory to Sports Facilities to Accommodation to Counselling and Career Services, plus buildings and grounds maintenance, bus services, subsidising Student Union services, security, cleaning, IT provision etc etc.
All of which you expect to be there - would you have chosen a Uni that didn't?
Do you just think some sort of nebulous 'they' pays for all this stuff?
Your £9k pays for vastly more than just your classroom time. Think of all the other facilities and services that your Uni provides - from the Library to the Refectory to Sports Facilities to Accommodation to Counselling and Career Services, plus buildings and grounds maintenance, bus services, subsidising Student Union services, security, cleaning, IT provision etc etc.
All of which you expect to be there - would you have chosen a Uni that didn't?
Do you just think some sort of nebulous 'they' pays for all this stuff?
Conversely
QFA
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
Original post by Origami Bullets
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
As people have said, it's just for funding the universities and their activities.
You're essentially just paying for the piece of paper at the end of it because that's what the job market wants. In an ideal world we wouldn't need all these universities and they could be abolished with just the top ones remaining. You don't really get value for money because we know a significant portion of students will never fully repay all their loans and such.
But that's what life is about these days. It's not about learning for the sake of learning. It's about learning for the sake of the piece of paper that gets you a job.
You're essentially just paying for the piece of paper at the end of it because that's what the job market wants. In an ideal world we wouldn't need all these universities and they could be abolished with just the top ones remaining. You don't really get value for money because we know a significant portion of students will never fully repay all their loans and such.
But that's what life is about these days. It's not about learning for the sake of learning. It's about learning for the sake of the piece of paper that gets you a job.
Original post by OMGWTFBBQ
Conversely
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
1./2. Would you provide an example of this? Most accademic research is funded entirely by grants or other external funding, unless, as is sometimes the case, students are allowed to participate in it e.g. for their final year project. Sometimes universities will have their own ring fenced grant funds. This is usually money which has been donated to the university for the purpose of research, or possibly due to specific agreements made with staff. E.g. when my university sold their old agricultural facilities it was agreed some of the money would be ring fenced for agricultural research.
A lot of money is spent on running costs- e.g. of buildings, which benefits both staff and students. When new buildings are built, the university generally tries to solicit outside funding, e.g. from industry, otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford them.
Occassionally universities do spend money on aesthetic features which provide little benefit to students, but this is often only a very small proportion of the budget, and some students do like their campus to look nice. And of course sometimes they pay very large wages with benefits to senior staff, e.g. vice chancellors. However this is only a very small proportion of the overall budget.
Not all spending will benefit all students, but most of the money that doesn't directly benefit current students comes from elsewhere.
3. I very much doubt university courses exist which are entirely unsupported. If you go to a bricks and mortar university, you will be offered lectures, seminars/labs and usually have a tutor who will do tutorials. You can also seak extra guidance from your lecturers if needed. This is much more supported than simply trying to research a subject on your own. You're guided through it in a structured way, sometimes suggested particular reading to do, and given assignments to help further your understanding.
Most universities also offer extra study skills support e.g. on how to right essays, or maths- often found in the library.
There is also a lot of support available for students with extra needs such as disabilities.
4. I can see both sides to this. Obviously, if you really were getting nothing at all for your money, you would drop out- so in this sense students are a bit like customers. However, being a customer (even in a shop) doesn't mean your every demand should be met. The "product" universities are selling you is education- the best way to educate students isn't always giving them exactly what they want.
Also, the university does have to be fair and transparent in the way their courses are delivered. They shouldn't, for example, give international students extra lessons because they pay more.
I know the russel group have come out saying that they are finding the current system unsustainable as well. It is possible that the quality of teach may have gone downhill at some institutions where they are packing students in to try and make their budgets balance.
I can see why some students don't think a university degree is worth the cost. However, the simple answer to this is that if you don't think it's worth it, then leave. Save yourself the remainder of the fees and drop out.
Original post by OMGWTFBBQ
Conversely
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
I agree with you Universities spent money on things that we don't need. It's like they expect us to pay that amount of money and still think we are not customers.
Original post by returnmigrant
You really are showing your immaturity here.
Your £9k pays for vastly more than just your classroom time. Think of all the other facilities and services that your Uni provides - from the Library to the Refectory to Sports Facilities to Accommodation to Counselling and Career Services, plus buildings and grounds maintenance, bus services, subsidising Student Union services, security, cleaning, IT provision etc etc.
All of which you expect to be there - would you have chosen a Uni that didn't?
Do you just think some sort of nebulous 'they' pays for all this stuff?
Your £9k pays for vastly more than just your classroom time. Think of all the other facilities and services that your Uni provides - from the Library to the Refectory to Sports Facilities to Accommodation to Counselling and Career Services, plus buildings and grounds maintenance, bus services, subsidising Student Union services, security, cleaning, IT provision etc etc.
All of which you expect to be there - would you have chosen a Uni that didn't?
Do you just think some sort of nebulous 'they' pays for all this stuff?
I hardly use those so called 'facilities'. So technically I am paying for something that I don't use. As a customer I'd like some value for my money what's so immature about that? :s
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by bluebluepurple
Surely, if every one was an independent learner then there would be no point in going to university. I could easily go to my local library and get books and teach myself, I see no point in wasting £££ just to do the same thing.
Academic libraries pay huge amounts for access to academic journals - something that local libraries simply don't provide.
If you were to access these as an individual then you'd be paying $20-$40 per ARTICLE (http://info.sciencedirect.com/sciencedirect/buying/individual_article_purchase_options/ppv ) - access for 5 people online to a single journal provided by an academic library is in excess of $2k pa for even small publications (http://store.elsevier.com/product.jsp?issn=13891286 )
If you're studying from the sort of books that you can access in a local library for your degree then you've wasted an opportunity to access a vast range of cutting edge research and knowledge that can only be accessed for an affordable price through studying a degree.
Original post by bluebluepurple
I hardly use those so called 'facilities'. So technically I am paying for something that I don't use. As a customer I'd like some value for my money what's so immature about that? :s
If you don't use those facilities (and really? you aren't using the library or any specialised software? and why haven't you used the careers service when you've paid for it?) then why chose to do a degree at a physical university - you'd have been better off studying with the OU.
Especially when it appears that you aren't even taking the opportunities for support from teaching staff when it is offered: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=46081717&highlight=
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by bluebluepurple
I hardly use those so called 'facilities'. So technically I am paying for something that I don't use. As a customer I'd like some value for my money what's so immature about that? :s
You're not a customer in the same way as if you had joined a gym though. The price cap is set by the government, and universities can't offer a range of different packages for students who use different facilities.
Most students want a lot of facilities to be available if they need them, so the university are trying to provide the things that an average student might need or want. As an example, the majority of students hopefully won't need counselling whilst at university, but many students find it reasuring to know it is there if they need it. Equally, some people might not care if places were cleaned less often or grounds less well maintained, but a lot of people would.
I can see you don't feel like you are getting value for money if you never use the library, IT, the SU, any eating facilities or the grounds and buildings of your university.
You're paying for the documents at the end of the day plus the beaurocracy that comes with it.
Not so much the teaching services and the amenities.
That's why the top universities cost so much more. While you do get a better learning experience you're mainly paying for it like a brand name.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Not so much the teaching services and the amenities.
That's why the top universities cost so much more. While you do get a better learning experience you're mainly paying for it like a brand name.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Origami Bullets
All universities, as far as I am aware, provide tutorials / seminars. It's just a question of how many people are in them. If you're at Oxbridge, it's one or sometimes two. If you're elsewhere, it'll commonly be 10-15.
All universities, as far as I am aware, provide tutorials / seminars. It's just a question of how many people are in them. If you're at Oxbridge, it's one or sometimes two. If you're elsewhere, it'll commonly be 10-15.
If I may correct this to 2 or sometimes 3. Well, Oxford at any rate - 1 on 1 tutorials are rare.
Original post by OMGWTFBBQ
Conversely
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
1. It may cost so much because Universities spend your money on a whole bunch of useless crap that is not in the interests of students.
2. See above
3. Independent does not equal unsuported
4. You are a customer, you are paying £9,000 a year and only a fool would think otherwise.
5. Agreed
1 & 2 - please provide examples. All of these things that I've mentioned do benefit students, even if it is not immediately obvious how.
For instance, research is largely funded out of sources other than tuition fees, but even so, research does benefit students. This is because the universities that put out the most and best research tend to be regarded as the most prestigious universities to graduate from, as evidenced by two things
a) The Russell Group is a group of large, research intensive universities. No research = no membership, and these are the universities that tend to be perceived as the best
b) The RAE ranks universities based on how much and how good the research is that unis put out. It's noticeable that the best universities there tend to be regarded as the best universities for undergraduates http://www.theguardian.com/education/table/2008/dec/18/rae-2008-results-uk-universities
Similarly, if there was no money spent on (say) open days (and they cost tens of thousands to run, largely in staff costs, as they have to pay students to work on them) then you would be moaning about it very loudly as an applicant, and fewer students would apply. Fewer students = less funding = downhill spiral.
I'm sure that you wouldn't want to study in buildings that were falling down around you, and so you have to pay for that.
As someone else noted, subscriptions to academic journals are fantastically expensive, and this has to be paid for somehow, and these are necessities when studying for a degree.
It is noticeable that amongst private schools, very few can charge less than £9000 per year. I've just done a quick survey of the eight private schools in my hometown of Bristol that take pupils up to 18. For day fees (i.e. tuition only), fees range from £11,085 to £22,725 per year. On top of that, you can expect to pay for exams, extra curricular activities, lunches, trips, uniforms, transport and spurious compulsory charges such as "house fund" or "headmaster's fund".
Now, you receive more tuition in a school, but they often provide fewer / less nice facilities, and fewer services. I've seen the inside of several of the schools that I looked at to find that tuition fee range, and I can assure you that my university has much better facilities in terms of everything from sports facilities and libraries to simple upkeep of the buildings.
Education is expensive. Really, really expensive. Everybody used to pay for it through taxes, and now it's a combination of graduates paying back loans and the taxpayer paying taxes. But either way, it has to be paid for by people, regardless of the headline figures attached.
3. Correct. You're not unsupported. You have several hours of lectures and seminars every week, and outside that time you're expected to follow the set readings, read beyond that, write assignments, sit exams and so on. You're expected to be independent in that you're not being physically supervised all the time - which isn't the same as being unsupported.
4. It's the subject of much debate, including within universities, but I think that the attitude that comes with thinking that you're a customer is one that can be very damaging to HE as a whole, because it brings in a culture of "the customer is always right" (anyone who's ever worked in a customer facing role knows damn well that the customer isn't always right), and "what the customer wants, the customer gets". Neither of those are appropriate to education, in my eyes.
Original post by bluebluepurple
I hardly use those so called 'facilities'. So technically I am paying for something that I don't use. As a customer I'd like some value for my money what's so immature about that? :s
That's your choice though - and as PQ rather entertainingly points out, you don't even bother turning up to lectures, so you're hardly doing your best to take advantage of all the opportunities that are being provided to you.
The other entertaining part of your post is that if you're currently in final year, you must have started your degree prior to 2012, so you're not even paying the higher fees
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