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Are Durham and Warwick really that prestigious worldwide?

I should probably explain myself before everyone pounces on me. Also, i don't doubt they are both exceptional universities.

It seems that, within the UK of course, they are very prestigious and well thought of, coming within the top 10 consistently. However i decided to look at world rankings of universities (I know you shouldn't rely on them completely, but they do give at least some idea of how unis are seen worldwide).

2013-14 THE rankings (Europe)
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking/region/europe
2013-14 QS world rankings
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2013#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=


As you can see, the order of best uni's in the UK usually goes Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, LSE, King's and Edinburgh in the top 50, while Durham and Warwick don't appear until 80 and 141 respectively (with Manchester and Bristol above Durham and York, Royal Holloway, Sheffield, Queen Mary, Glasgow, St Andrews, Sussex, Lancaster and Leeds above Warwick) for the THE rankings. The QS rankings follow in a similar fashion (Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, Edinburgh, King's, Bristol and Manchester in the top 50, Warwick at 64 and Durham at 90)

I found this surprising since the two are so highly regarded here. Anyone know any reasons for this? Possibly because they aren't in famous cities? I'm interested because, since we're becoming more globalised, it's likely most people will have to start moving and working abroad more often and companies will become more international.

Again, no disrespect to Durham or Warwick, just curious.

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Reply 1
A big reason for Warwick is the lack of tradition. Lots of ranking measure research based on citations - a university like UCL has had far longer to develop those reputations than relatively young Warwick.
Reply 2
Original post by Ellen96

I found this surprising since the two are so highly regarded here. Anyone know any reasons for this? Possibly because they aren't in famous cities? I'm interested because, since we're becoming more globalised, it's likely most people will have to start moving and working abroad more often and companies will become more international.

Again, no disrespect to Durham or Warwick, just curious.


Because international tables are based on very different criteria to domestic tables. International tables will consider things such as citations, peer reviews, Academic awards and even number of international students and staff - all of which favour the larger research intensive universities in larger cities.

As for employment, if you look at the employer review in league tables you'll find both perform quite strongly internationally anyway (around top 25 in the world). This is largely because they are strong universities, so it's no surprise their graduates do well, but also because so many major multi-nationals are Anglo-American anyway.
Reply 3
Durham and Warwick do all right but aren't all that prestigious worldwide. Mostly because they lack name recognition. Its the same with all small universities.

Have you heard of Williams or Amherst College? They are the top 2 liberal arts colleges in the US and Williams is one of the top 5 feeders to Ivy League graduate schools and yet few have heard of them.
Reply 4
Original post by ukmed108
Durham and Warwick do all right but aren't all that prestigious worldwide. Mostly because they lack name recognition. Its the same with all small universities.

Have you heard of Williams or Amherst College? They are the top 2 liberal arts colleges in the US and Williams is one of the top 5 feeders to Ivy League graduate schools and yet few have heard of them.


Yes Warwick and Durham may be smaller than the likes of Manchester or UCL, but they're still medium to large size multi-faculty universities. I'm not sure if a comparison to Amherst, for example, which doesn't even have 2 thousand undergraduates, is all that useful.
Reply 5
Warwick really suffers in citations, because it hasn't had hundreds of years to build up a wealth of literature.
However, some people here in Germany have heard of the Uni, other than simply because it's an Erasmus partner. Some of the foreign students I've met here have commented that it's a really good University. So it does have recognition, just not as instant as Oxbridge.
Reply 6
Original post by River85
Yes Warwick and Durham may be smaller than the likes of Manchester or UCL, but they're still medium to large size multi-faculty universities. I'm not sure if a comparison to Amherst, for example, which doesn't even have 2 thousand undergraduates, is all that useful.


A better comparison of Warwick is Waterloo. Have you heard of the University of Waterloo? Its a very good uni.
Reply 7
This is a bit like Stanford in the USA. It is not "Ivy League" but alongside MIT is arguably the best university on the planet. Warwick is highly regarded here for being top notch. And Durham rightly or wrongly is regarded as being full of well educated sub Oxbridge often privately educated students. Both are very highly regarded.
Reply 8
Original post by Old_Simon
This is a bit like Stanford in the USA. It is not "Ivy League" but alongside MIT is arguably the best university on the planet. Warwick is highly regarded here for being top notch. And Durham rightly or wrongly is regarded as being full of well educated sub Oxbridge often privately educated students. Both are very highly regarded.


No its not really. Stanford is better than every Ivy League except Harvard. In 2013 it won more Nobel Prizes than Warwick and Durham did in their entire history combined. Btw, I believe warwick and durham both have 0 nobel prizes. This is just an example, there is so much more that can be said.
Reply 9
Original post by ukmed108
No its not really. Stanford is better than every Ivy League except Harvard. In 2013 it won more Nobel Prizes than Warwick and Durham did in their entire history combined. Btw, I believe warwick and durham both have 0 nobel prizes. This is just an example, there is so much more that can be said.


In terms of number of staff who were currently working at the universities when they received their Nobel Prizes, I believe the number is 0. This is certainly true of Durham. However, there are a few gradutes of Durham and Warwick, or former research staff, who received a NP later in their career elsewhere having already started their research at Durham/Warwick.

I only say this as univerities often inflate the number of Nobel Laureates they have had by including junior academics who were with them for a short amount of time.. For example, often I see St Andrews claim to have one Nobel Laureate in particular Nobel Laureates to despite him being a junior academic (who then went on to Durham and then Birmingham to conduct the research which led to the Nobel Prize).
Reply 10
Original post by River85
In terms of number of staff who were currently working at the universities when they received their Nobel Prizes, I believe the number is 0. This is certainly true of Durham. However, there are a few gradutes of Durham and Warwick, or former research staff, who received a NP later in their career elsewhere having already started their research at Durham/Warwick.

I only say this as univerities often inflate the number of Nobel Laureates they have had by including junior academics who were with them for a short amount of time.. For example, often I see St Andrews claim to have one Nobel Laureate in particular Nobel Laureates to despite him being a junior academic (who then went on to Durham and then Birmingham to conduct the research which led to the Nobel Prize).


Do you know who?
Don't fool yourselves...
Reply 12
Original post by OxbridgeAddict
Don't fool yourselves...


Is that for people who believe they are prestigious worldwide or for those who don't?
Reply 13
Original post by Old_Simon
This is a bit like Stanford in the USA. It is not "Ivy League" but alongside MIT is arguably the best university on the planet. Warwick is highly regarded here for being top notch. And Durham rightly or wrongly is regarded as being full of well educated sub Oxbridge often privately educated students. Both are very highly regarded.


This is truly ridiculous. Stanford is leaps and bounds better than those two institutions. Also, please realize that "Ivy League" has nothing to do with schools' caliber; it is merely the name of the oldest ATHLETIC league in the US. Thus, it would be very wrong to say that places like Brown and Cornell are better than Stanford or MIT just because they are members of the Ivy League.
Reply 14
Original post by Old_Simon
This is a bit like Stanford in the USA. It is not "Ivy League" but alongside MIT is arguably the best university on the planet. Warwick is highly regarded here for being top notch. And Durham rightly or wrongly is regarded as being full of well educated sub Oxbridge often privately educated students. Both are very highly regarded.


Stanford is way better than both warwick and durham combined + pretty much everyone heard about stanford.
Reply 15
Original post by River85
In terms of number of staff who were currently working at the universities when they received their Nobel Prizes, I believe the number is 0. This is certainly true of Durham. However, there are a few gradutes of Durham and Warwick, or former research staff, who received a NP later in their career elsewhere having already started their research at Durham/Warwick.

I only say this as univerities often inflate the number of Nobel Laureates they have had by including junior academics who were with them for a short amount of time.. For example, often I see St Andrews claim to have one Nobel Laureate in particular Nobel Laureates to despite him being a junior academic (who then went on to Durham and then Birmingham to conduct the research which led to the Nobel Prize).


If they conducted research at Durham, i'm sure that Durham would take the credit.
The only unis that are internationally competitive wrt Harvard, Yale etc are Oxbridge and Imperial
Reply 17
Original post by Ellen96
X


The main reason why Warwick and Durham have been struggling to be ranked higher is because their STEM and biomedical departments are relatively weak or absent.

World university rankings are powered by the Thomson Reuters science citation index, and this index strongly prefers biomedical studies, and then STEM subjects, but less social science and very little part of art and humanities.

So the universities having large and strong biomedical and STEM departments can automatically have better positions. Especially the QS rankings have this tendency.

wr1.png

wr2.png

You can see how citations/faculty scores perform badly without strong biomedical and STEM departments in the table above.
Reply 18
Original post by WinstonO'Brien
The only unis that are internationally competitive wrt Harvard, Yale etc are Oxbridge and Imperial


You must be from Imperial lol. Imperial is good but its ranking is inflated because of its focus on courses that require higher entrance averages in general.
Reply 19
Original post by ukmed108
You must be from Imperial lol. Imperial is good but its ranking is inflated because of its focus on courses that require higher entrance averages in general.


Obviously you're not from Imperial, what you said doesn't even make sense!

Imperial demands high entry grades because of several reasons, not least because of grade inflation in the UK, viz GCSE and A-Levels but also due to demand and supply.

If a run-of-the-mill uni asks for A*A*A*, do you think they would get many applicants?

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