How Significant Are You?
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Nothing mortal/stuck on the planet Earth is significant in the grand scheme of things given how insignificant the planet Earth is when compared to the universe (pretty much as insignificant as a grain of sand on a beach which can easily be swallowed by the sea (or sun in the literal sense).
Significance would start with space colonisation/civilisation, if it ever happens.
Significance would start with space colonisation/civilisation, if it ever happens.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by KeepYourChinUp
We are not significant in any kind of way. Just the same as a rock is not signficant but it's still important to remember that you're part of the universe. It isn't like you're an outsider looking in... I find it very comforting knowing that the universe is responsible for everything from a tiny flower to supernova and I am a part of it, however small, I am still a part of it all 
An infinitesimally insignificant part of the universe.
The mass of the Universe is approximately 10^50 kg. You are 70kg at most.
7000/(10^50)=7*10^-47
So your mass is 7*10^-47 percent of the universes mass. That's quite insignificant.
Original post by mastermdc
An infinitesimally insignificant part of the universe.
The mass of the Universe is approximately 10^50 kg. You are 70kg at most.
7000/(10^50)=7*10^-47
So your mass is 7*10^-47 percent of the universes mass. That's quite insignificant.
The mass of the Universe is approximately 10^50 kg. You are 70kg at most.
7000/(10^50)=7*10^-47
So your mass is 7*10^-47 percent of the universes mass. That's quite insignificant.
You're judging significance based on mass or size which isn't how significance should be described. A processor is arguably the most important component of a computer but it's also one of the smallest components.
Our insignificance is based on our contribution levels to the universe. Remember though that mankind is just a product of the universe, a lot of people are under the illusion that we control things lol. We control NOTHING, nature does all that for us... we're simply an outcome of nature doing it's thing.
As far as significance goes I would say that mankind is less significant than grass, at least grass serves a purpose. I would challenge anyone here to think of a single thing that makes mankind valuable to the Earth?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by imtelling
The human brain is the culmination of a highly ordered process where the universe has gone from states of extreme simplicity to extreme complexity, and, as far as we know, the human brain is the pinnacle of this process -- a process which is the exact opposite of entropy.
This process is not random or directionless. The universe is a highly ordered system governed by highly ordered laws.
This process is not random or directionless. The universe is a highly ordered system governed by highly ordered laws.
What are the criteria you are using to say that the human brain is the most complicated thing in the universe?
To me it appears trivially false. A human brain plus a rock is more complicated than a human brain alone. A star is more complicated. A galaxy is far more complicated.
Original post by Calvin
What are the criteria you are using to say that the human brain is the most complicated thing in the universe?
To me it appears trivially false. A human brain plus a rock is more complicated than a human brain alone. A star is more complicated. A galaxy is far more complicated.
To me it appears trivially false. A human brain plus a rock is more complicated than a human brain alone. A star is more complicated. A galaxy is far more complicated.
The organising principles which allow inanimate matter to become animate matter, or life, are more complicated than the organising principles of inanimate matter.
Matter cannot become animate randomly. It needs the universe to reach a certain state of complexity before it can begin to flourish.
Humans are the pinnacle of animate matter and so the most complex thing the universe has produced so far.
Human beings themselves have gone from stone tools to the large hadron collider in a few thousand years. We are a fractal of the universal instinct for ever greater complexity. The universe is us and we are the universe doing what the universe wants us to do; become more complex.
To say human life is insignificant is just not true. Even if you have a completely chaotic and mechanistic approach you cannot deny that life itself is incredibly rare in the universe. This alone should make people realise that their existence is not insignificant.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by imtelling
The organising principles which allow inanimate matter to become animate matter, or life, are more complicated than the organising principles of inanimate matter.
Matter cannot become animate randomly. It needs the universe to reach a certain state of complexity before it can begin to flourish.
Humans are the pinnacle of animate matter and so the most complex thing the universe has produced so far.
This alone should make people realise that their existence is not insignificant.
Matter cannot become animate randomly. It needs the universe to reach a certain state of complexity before it can begin to flourish.
Humans are the pinnacle of animate matter and so the most complex thing the universe has produced so far.
This alone should make people realise that their existence is not insignificant.
Of course I can deny it, we have no idea how rare life is. There are estimated to be a septillion stars in the universe.
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.
We have no idea if we are common or rare. I'll happily grant you that we are significant to ourselves - we are the only sentient spacefaring life in the universe we are aware of. But to make statements about our significance on a galactic scale you need to know how common life is, and we don't.
Furthermore I still maintain that there is no sense in which anything is objectively significant. We are significant to ourselves, but the universe doesn't care about us. We aren't significant to it. If we die it doesn't "set the universe back a step" in any way shape or form, because the universe is not trying to accomplish anything. There is no goal, because goal implies intent and the universe has no intent.
(edited 10 years ago)
I don't understand why people make such a big deal about us being so unimportant in the bigger picture. So what? How does it affect the layman's everyday life is he is utterly insignificant in the scale of the universe? People carry on living just as they did before.
Original post by Chlorophile
I don't understand why people make such a big deal about us being so unimportant in the bigger picture. So what? How does it affect the layman's everyday life is he is utterly insignificant in the scale of the universe? People carry on living just as they did before.
Why are you concerned with the layman's perspective?
Original post by Chlorophile
I don't understand why people make such a big deal about us being so unimportant in the bigger picture. So what? How does it affect the layman's everyday life is he is utterly insignificant in the scale of the universe? People carry on living just as they did before.
Because regardless of who you are or what you believe, it's important to know your true place in the universe. After all that is part of being human, the ability to recognise truth. If some people get upset about their true place in the universe then I don't know what to suggest, for me it's incredible.
Original post by imtelling
Humans are the pinnacle of animate matter and so the most complex thing the universe has produced so far.
Haha based on what exactly? our incredibly tiny, infinitesimally small region of the universe? You act like humans are the only animals on Earth that are complex. The human body is pretty much identical to that of a chimpanzee, they have hearts, lungs, kidneys, intestines, a pancreas ect. Our dna is less than 2% different as at the very most we only just surpass chimpanzees if you're regarding significance based on complexity.
Like I told you before significance isn't based on anything other than how important you are to the universe. What makes YOU important? What makes mankind important? Frankly I can't think of anything, but this doesn't make me sad... It just reminds me of my true place in the universe. A tiny little washer in a massive machine and if the washer is removed the machine will still function perfectly.
Gravity, light, warmth, electromagnetism, water, oxygen, nitrogen, helium ect are all orders of magnitude more significant than mankind yet there presence goes pretty much unnoticed every single day and you have the audacity to sit there and think you are somewhat important? What a joke.
(edited 10 years ago)
Very. I'm the most important being in my own world.
Original post by Calvin
Of course I can deny it, we have no idea how rare life is. There are estimated to be a septillion stars in the universe.
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.
We have no idea if we are common or rare. I'll happily grant you that we are significant to ourselves - we are the only sentient spacefaring life in the universe we are aware of. But to make statements about our significance on a galactic scale you need to know how common life is, and we don't.
Furthermore I still maintain that there is no sense in which anything is objectively significant. We are significant to ourselves, but the universe doesn't care about us. We aren't significant to it. If we die it doesn't "set the universe back a step" in any way shape or form, because the universe is not trying to accomplish anything. There is no goal, because goal implies intent and the universe has no intent.
10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.
We have no idea if we are common or rare. I'll happily grant you that we are significant to ourselves - we are the only sentient spacefaring life in the universe we are aware of. But to make statements about our significance on a galactic scale you need to know how common life is, and we don't.
Furthermore I still maintain that there is no sense in which anything is objectively significant. We are significant to ourselves, but the universe doesn't care about us. We aren't significant to it. If we die it doesn't "set the universe back a step" in any way shape or form, because the universe is not trying to accomplish anything. There is no goal, because goal implies intent and the universe has no intent.
As far as we know life on earth is the only life in the universe. Yes, this is almost certainly wrong but until we know for sure you cannot just say life is insignificant.
As for the universe having intent. I am not saying it has a conscience intent, just that the laws which govern it have direction and purpose. Why these laws exist and where they come from may be an impossible thing to answer, but we can at least look at their output. And that output is for ever greater complexity.
Even the most basic of computer programs has intent. It outputs something. Whatever the universe is, it too is governed by a 'programme' which we call the laws of physics.
(edited 10 years ago)
I care about myself, and to me that's all that matters (obviously).
On the highest scale, none of us are significant, individually or as a species. As far as we know anyway, we don't know what our purpose is (if one exists).
Speaking in terms of humanity, there's still not really any significance. If every great scholar that has existed did not, then someone else would've taken their place and made their advancements.
It's quite sad, but we're pointless and you have to accept that.
Speaking in terms of humanity, there's still not really any significance. If every great scholar that has existed did not, then someone else would've taken their place and made their advancements.
It's quite sad, but we're pointless and you have to accept that.
Original post by Calvin
What are the criteria you are using to say that the human brain is the most complicated thing in the universe?
To me it appears trivially false. A human brain plus a rock is more complicated than a human brain alone. A star is more complicated. A galaxy is far more complicated.
To me it appears trivially false. A human brain plus a rock is more complicated than a human brain alone. A star is more complicated. A galaxy is far more complicated.
a galaxy is not more complex than the human brain. The brain contains billions of neurones each connecting to and interacting with thousands of others in a highly ordrered. A galaxy is just a bunch of things spinning around.
Original post by imtelling
As far as we know life on earth is the only life in the universe. Yes, this is almost certainly wrong but until we know for sure you cannot just say life is insignificant.
Again, I think we agree here when we mean significant to us.
As for the universe having intent. I am not saying it has a conscience intent, just that the laws which govern it have direction and purpose. Why these laws exist and where they come from may be an impossible thing to answer, but we can at least look at their output. And that output is for ever greater complexity.
No not purpose. Purpose
Purpose:
1. the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
2. have as one's intention or objective.
The universe doesn't have intentions, it doesn't exist to create complexity. It just does create complexity (from our perspective of time...)
Even the most basic of computer programs has intent. It outputs something. Whatever the universe is, it too is governed by a 'programme' which we call the laws of physics.
The programmer has intent, the program has nothing.
Original post by lucaf
a galaxy is not more complex than the human brain. The brain contains billions of neurones each connecting to and interacting with thousands of others in a highly ordrered. A galaxy is just a bunch of things spinning around.
A galaxy has billions of stars, each containing uncountable numbers of atoms and molecules each exerting very tiny forces on each other. It contains clouds of gas and dust light years across. Stars travel around super massive black holes with huge accretion disks of matter hanging on the edge of an event horizon and being heated into plasma. Gamma rays, X rays, microwaves, photons, dark matter.
"A galaxy is just a bunch of things spinning around" is a complete strawman argument.
Original post by Calvin
A galaxy has billions of stars, each containing uncountable numbers of atoms and molecules each exerting very tiny forces on each other. It contains clouds of gas and dust light years across. Stars travel around super massive black holes with huge accretion disks of matter hanging on the edge of an event horizon and being heated into plasma. Gamma rays, X rays, microwaves, photons, dark matter.
"A galaxy is just a bunch of things spinning around" is a complete strawman argument.
"A galaxy is just a bunch of things spinning around" is a complete strawman argument.
It was an oversimplification, but the components of the galaxy do not interact in any sort of meaningful way. A galaxy is large, but it is not complex.
Original post by Calvin
Again, I think we agree here when we mean significant to us.
No not purpose. Purpose
Purpose:
1. the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
2. have as one's intention or objective.
The universe doesn't have intentions, it doesn't exist to create complexity. It just does create complexity (from our perspective of time...)
The programmer has intent, the program has nothing.
No not purpose. Purpose
Purpose:
1. the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
2. have as one's intention or objective.
The universe doesn't have intentions, it doesn't exist to create complexity. It just does create complexity (from our perspective of time...)
The programmer has intent, the program has nothing.
A programme is a mini system that does something specific. It has a purpose that it has to fulfil. The universe is doing something very specific. It does't have to organise matter and energy the way it does, but it does because the programme which governs it tells it what to do.
Ultimately, this can only be answered once we understand what the universe actually is. Why it exists. How it exists.
Until that time its all speculation anyway so i suppose its a matter of what makes you more comfortable to believe.
Original post by Calvin
Why are you concerned with the layman's perspective?
Because the fact of the matter is that the objective truth of significance is totally irrelevant to 99.9% of the population. It doesn't affect most people's lives. I have no problem discussing significance, but it's wrong to think that it's actually important.
Original post by KeepYourChinUp
Because regardless of who you are or what you believe, it's important to know your true place in the universe. After all that is part of being human, the ability to recognise truth. If some people get upset about their true place in the universe then I don't know what to suggest, for me it's incredible.
Firstly, I'm not saying that people shouldn't know that we are insignificant compared to the universe, I am simply saying that it doesn't matter. Knowing your "true place in the universe" doesn't make an iota of a difference to a normal person's life.
Secondly, why is it important to know? Since when is recognising truth a part of being human? I'd argue that religion is just as, if not more, closely connected to humanity than science. Most people get through their lives perfectly happily believing in things that almost certainly aren't true. You are absolutely entitled to want to know the factual truth and it is important to some people, like me. But you have to understand that it has no objective importance. Most people simply do not care, and that's fine.
Original post by lucaf
It was an oversimplification, but the components of the galaxy do not interact in any sort of meaningful way. A galaxy is large, but it is not complex.
Of course they interact in meaningful ways. Dust and ice particles interact to form rocks and asteroids which form massive clouds which causes stars to spontaneously form. These stars fuse heavy elements out of hydrogen to form iron, oxygen, nitrogen over billions of years. These stars then die, flinging these heavy elements out into the galaxy where they eventually through repeated cycles find their way to planets. Geological and weather erosion creates ecosystems that eventually with just the right temperature and luck give rise to life on microscopic scales.
That's incredibly meaningful and at least as complicated as a bunch of near identical neurons zapping electric signals and hormones at each other.
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