The only people who say that you don't have to speak English in England are...
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Original post by tehforum
Another qualification.
I'm not expecting perfect English. I expect a degree of proficiency which would enable one to hold a normal conversation.
I'm not expecting perfect English. I expect a degree of proficiency which would enable one to hold a normal conversation.
But does it affect you if they don't learn English, and, for example, only speak to their Urdu-speaking friends? They can get on perfectly fine without learning English if they live in a neighbourhood with others that speak their language.
Original post by tehforum
Read the thread.
No, it sucks.
Original post by tehforum
Either/and
1) Have parents who do not speak English, hence the natural, but wholly inadequate justification for defending such a bad trait.
2) Can't speak English properly themselves, and resort to gangsta innit wot bruv yh sik fam kind of dialect to make up for their inability to reason
3) Are sponging off the state, and live in an insular community where speaking English is the exception, not the norm.
Discuss.
1) Have parents who do not speak English, hence the natural, but wholly inadequate justification for defending such a bad trait.
2) Can't speak English properly themselves, and resort to gangsta innit wot bruv yh sik fam kind of dialect to make up for their inability to reason
3) Are sponging off the state, and live in an insular community where speaking English is the exception, not the norm.
Discuss.
White British male.
I don't care what language we or anyone else speaks, tbh. What's the big deal?
Shouldn't be allowed to live in a country if you don't speak the language imo.
It's rude not to, even worse to then claim benefits
Unless you're like an asylum seeker in an extreme case, but then I'd expect you to try and learn the language.
It's rude not to, even worse to then claim benefits
Unless you're like an asylum seeker in an extreme case, but then I'd expect you to try and learn the language.
Original post by clh_hilary
But British people understand it. So you can speak American.
Such point.
No.
American English is riddled with near-cognates. It's not a totally different language.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
One of the only times I will agree with you
Okay, say you end up moving to Bulgaria following retirement. It would be completely reasonable to 'pressure' you into learning Bulgarian then?
Original post by Autistic Merit
But does it affect you if they don't learn English, and, for example, only speak to their Urdu-speaking friends? They can get on perfectly fine without learning English if they live in a neighbourhood with others that speak their language.
Why does something have to directly affect me, for it to concern me?
Original post by tehforum
Why does something have to directly affect me, for it to concern me?
Okay, say they're sponging off the state then (indirect effect on you). Why does it matter whether they speak English or not? They're still sponging whether they know enough English to buy a lottery ticket or not.
Secondly, if you were to move to, say, Spain, would you like it if people looked down on you for not bothering to learn Spanish?
Original post by Autistic Merit
Okay, say you end up moving to Bulgaria following retirement. It would be completely reasonable to 'pressure' you into learning Bulgarian then?
Yes. If I move to another country, I should make the effort to learn the language. How the hell can you integrate and be a functioning member of the society without?
Original post by tehforum
Why does something have to directly affect me, for it to concern me?
Because your concern that they don't speak english (providing you are saying they should) is having a direct negative impact on their freedom to choose how they should live their life. Hence if someone's personal life choice doesn't affect you, then you shouldn't affect them.
Original post by Autistic Merit
Secondly, if you were to move to, say, Spain, would you like it if people looked down on you for not bothering to learn Spanish?
Yes, they should be looked down upon for not trying to learn Spanish.
Original post by Autistic Merit
Okay, say they're sponging off the state then (indirect effect on you). Why does it matter whether they speak English or not? They're still sponging whether they know enough English to buy a lottery ticket or not.
Secondly, if you were to move to, say, Spain, would you like it if people looked down on you for not bothering to learn Spanish?
Secondly, if you were to move to, say, Spain, would you like it if people looked down on you for not bothering to learn Spanish?
Because, when those benefits are removed, or reduced to a level which makes life uncomfortable, what does one do without the ability to speak English? You can't get a job without some sort of functioning English.
It doesn't matter if I don't like it. I would have to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of living in a foreign country I should make an attempt to learn their language.
Original post by Dr Alcoholic
Because your concern that they don't speak english (providing you are saying they should) is having a direct negative impact on their freedom to choose how they should live their life. Hence if someone's personal life choice doesn't affect you, then you shouldn't affect them.
See above.
it affects the whole of the state and our peoples.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by clh_hilary
You can speak American.
Original post by clh_hilary
But British people understand it. So you can speak American.
What is speaking "American"? English is the language, and then there are variations between countries (American English, British English, New Zealand English etc.) so really they would still be speaking the English language. The original point never made reference to British English specifically, so I think the point there is splitting hairs somewhat.
Original post by scott18044
What is speaking "American"? English is the language, and then there are variations between countries (American English, British English, New Zealand English etc.) so really they would still be speaking the English language. The original point never made reference to British English specifically, so I think the point there is splitting hairs somewhat.
It was a joke.
Original post by clh_hilary
It was a joke.
Hmm.. I think you might to work on that one some more then..
Original post by tehforum
Either/and
1) Have parents who do not speak English, hence the natural, but wholly inadequate justification for defending such a bad trait.
2) Can't speak English properly themselves, and resort to gangsta innit wot bruv yh sik fam kind of dialect to make up for their inability to reason
3) Are sponging off the state, and live in an insular community where speaking English is the exception, not the norm.
Discuss.
1) Have parents who do not speak English, hence the natural, but wholly inadequate justification for defending such a bad trait.
2) Can't speak English properly themselves, and resort to gangsta innit wot bruv yh sik fam kind of dialect to make up for their inability to reason
3) Are sponging off the state, and live in an insular community where speaking English is the exception, not the norm.
Discuss.
Contentious statements to spark off what hopefully will be an interesting, reasonable debate on this subject, but I think there's only partial truth in them. The whole substandard English argument (ie use to slang, for instance in gangster culture) relates primarily to culture and upbringing, it seems to me, which links in a little with your first point. However, I disagree with your third point about being "sponging" off the state. All sorts of people claim benefits; it's not just this so-called ubiquitous "under-class" which newspapers such as the Daily Mailseek to demonize. I'm no Labour Party supporter, but their battle cries of late that a "majority" of people claiming some sort of benefit are actually in work seems to me to be worth thinking about. I generally agree, however, with your general message: English should absolutely be learnt by those who move here in search of a better life. Of course it should. I'm not sure you'll find many people of sensible political persuasions who will disagree.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
Yes. If I move to another country, I should make the effort to learn the language. How the hell can you integrate and be a functioning member of the society without?
Well said. I agree with you.
Original post by tehforum
Because, when those benefits are removed, or reduced to a level which makes life uncomfortable, what does one do without the ability to speak English? You can't get a job without some sort of functioning English.
It doesn't matter if I don't like it. I would have to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of living in a foreign country I should make an attempt to learn their language.
See above.
it affects the whole of the state and our peoples.
It doesn't matter if I don't like it. I would have to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of living in a foreign country I should make an attempt to learn their language.
See above.
it affects the whole of the state and our peoples.
What has benefits got to do with the language they speak? This is a debate about them speaking a language not taking benefits. However to entertain your point, they may find it difficult to get a job, but more often than not the type of job they do get are ones where their literacy isn't a big issue. When the polish started coming many couldn't speak english but they still managed to find jobs in farms and agriculture, or jobs building with fellow polish etc. Not learning the language would only make it more difficult for their life, however, if they have a job then what difference does it make.
I don't see where the conclusion that to reap the benefits they have to speak english comes from? The only person it affects is them.
None of those things apply to me. But as much as I believe people should learn English, that doesn't mean they have to speak it all the time. I don't care nor do I have the right to dictate which language people are most comfortable using.
Besides which, the people who you are referring to who don't speak English are here to work - usually they'll find it with other speakers of the language, find jobs without proficiency, then leave for another country/ home, so it really doesn't make a difference to them. It's a free world, not just a free country.
Besides which, the people who you are referring to who don't speak English are here to work - usually they'll find it with other speakers of the language, find jobs without proficiency, then leave for another country/ home, so it really doesn't make a difference to them. It's a free world, not just a free country.
(edited 10 years ago)
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