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Do Sociopaths deserve full human rights?

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Original post by drowzee
What a stupid thread, of course they do. Not all sociopaths and psychopaths are raging, sadistic lunatics that go around killing people for fun, they're a very, very small minority.


You don't get it, do you?The OP never said they were. It's not about whether they KILL or not. It's about the pain and suffering they nevertheless cause. You people keep on saying "most never kill anyone, most never kill anyone" as if that's the only thing that matters or that ultimately determines whether or not a person is bad.

No, it doesn't. Big deal. Big deal most never kill anyone. So what? Does that make their victims feel better? Does the fact that they nevertheless violate social norms and all the misery they wreak upon their "hosts" with their fraud, lying, cheating, stealing and dishonesty somehow make their victims feel better because the sociopath/psychopath/AsPD didn't physically kill anyone? Does the fact that they never criminally killed anyone MAKE THEIR VICTIMS FEEL ANY BETTER? DOES IT CHANGE ANYTHING?
Original post by XcitingStuart
What, the, ****, is, wrong, with, you?

There's an undercurrent of so many retarded views, the post also full of inconsistencies.


An undercurrent of so many retarded views?

How is recognizing that sociopaths do not suffer 'retarded'? They supposedly "suffer" a disorder, yet it's often their victims that come out of it scarred. Moreover, for all of their "suffering", for all of their inability to empathize, to feel love and compassion and show love and compassion and their innate lack of conscience, they seem pretty adamant in remaining as they are--a complete reversal to the typical reaction of a person suffering from a disease and yes, even a personality disorder. Borderlines too suffer a disorder under the Cluster B category but most suffer from it, they can't cope, they do not hide it, they get help. So let's not treat personality disorders as if they're so distinct from even physiologic disorders. The hallmark of a disorder, whether physical, emotional, psychological, neurological, social, skeletal or personality-like is that the individual suffers--that's one of the essential definitions of a disorder--it is just like a disease in that the person suffers and want to be rid of it. 99% of AsPDs/Sociopaths/Psychopaths do NOT wish to be cured. It's one thing to be treated, it's a totally different story to be CURED. Many get treated, and even then, it's primarily because they are referred to by either court order, their spouses, their "lovers" or even their family members or if there is personal gain from treatment. Very, very rarely do they do so because they WANT to get better and they want to be functioning members of society for its own sake.

And don't give me the typical "they don't think anything is wrong with them" as a reason most don't want to get better. These people are not disconnected from reality and can tell the basic differences between reality and fiction and what is right and what is wrong. They are fully aware of themselves and the effects their actions have on other people. In fact, one of the most essential parts of being a sociopath is FULL awareness--a near-exceptional level of sensitivity and awareness so profound that it perhaps rivals an eagle's vision. They can feel what goes on inside of themselves and what they have and what they are missing. So, it's not like they are so emotionally numb that it equates to sensory numbness. They know. They know they are emotionless, cold, callous individuals. They know their behavior and character pattern is out of line with the rest of the world. The problem is, they don't care. They don't want to be cured or to get better. That's why it's so scarce, almost unheard of for a person with such a "disorder" that actually wants to get better of their own volition and not just because they want to get better or to feel better themselves. And given their full cognitive clarity and profound level of sensory awareness of what they are and what they do, the lame excuse of "I don't think anything is wrong with me" doesn't work.

Thus, this also refutes the idea that their psychological make-up and "wiring" is so different that it somehow tricks them into thinking nothing is wrong. That distinct psychological make-up doesn't disconnect them from reality and again, being a sociopath perhaps increases one's awareness around them and even within themselves--even more so than a "neurotypical's". So I think they can tell something is wrong with themselves. In fact, they are perhaps the most knowledgeable of what is going on inside of themselves than anybody, perhaps even, and ironically enough, the so-called experts in the field of psychiatry. They even say they feel nothing.

Also, it's interesting to note that their "symptoms" just seem like actions and/or behavior that is in line with typical criminality or otherwise social nonconformity. Indulging in alcohol and drugs, sleeping around with multiple, different partners, living for the moment and always seeking stimulation is NOT a disorder. Those are choices people make.

Neurology or psychological or "genetic" make-up doesn't make one selfish. It's a choice one makes. The closest that selfish tendencies are out of ANYONE'S control is perhaps temptation or an urge to do such. That's it.
Original post by Lyssandrah
You don't get it, do you?The OP never said they were. It's not about whether they KILL or not. It's about the pain and suffering they nevertheless cause. You people keep on saying "most never kill anyone, most never kill anyone" as if that's the only thing that matters or that ultimately determines whether or not a person is bad.

No, it doesn't. Big deal. Big deal most never kill anyone. So what? Does that make their victims feel better? Does the fact that they nevertheless violate social norms and all the misery they wreak upon their "hosts" with their fraud, lying, cheating, stealing and dishonesty somehow make their victims feel better because the sociopath/psychopath/AsPD didn't physically kill anyone? Does the fact that they never criminally killed anyone MAKE THEIR VICTIMS FEEL ANY BETTER? DOES IT CHANGE ANYTHING?

You are ridiculously stupid. What pain and suffering are you talking about? MOST sociopaths are normal functioning human beings that do not break the law. Shall we just take away their rights as humans then?
Original post by drowzee
You are ridiculously stupid. What pain and suffering are you talking about? MOST sociopaths are normal functioning human beings that do not break the law. Shall we just take away their rights as humans then?


No. They are not good people. They only abide by the laws to stay out of jail, not because it's the right thing to do. So don't treat them like they're normal people. And you obviously never read Robert Hare's Without Conscience or Martha Stout's The Sociopath Next Door. Just because they abide by the law doesn't mean they don't commit immoral actions. They lie, cheat, steal from their loved ones or people who trust them, sleep around, practice underhanded tactics, are bullies, take pleasure in emotionally abusing others. These deeds aren't illegal, but they are nevertheless wrong. They are NOT good people. So don't treat them as such. It's the definition of a sociopath; a user and abuser of other people. These two aforementioned authors of those books are seasoned, veteran, leading experts in the field of psychiatry and have profound knowledge of the disorder. I got this knowledge from these people. Are you calling them stupid?

And I was talking about social nonconformity--not crimes. Social nonconformity isn't crime--it's a pattern of behavior that is unchaste, immoral, ignoble or otherwise considered taboo by the rest of society. As forementioned above, it can range from things like promiscuity and lying to emotionally and psychologically abusing others. You sociopath-apologists like to split hairs and make it seem like they're innocent people who live their lives quietly never bothering anybody. If they do that, they are not a sociopath. Sociopaths/Psychopaths/AsPDs are social predators--it's the very definition of the disorder.

People are images and reflections of yourself, so maybe it is you who is foolish. In fact, it could be argued that these parasites want you to believe that since most don't commit crimes, they're innocent or good or reasonable.

Anyways, these leeches have no place in society and need to be removed, since there is no cure. We don't need sociopaths in society.
(edited 8 years ago)
Yes. They are human ergo they deserve human rights, that's why they're called rights. You don't have to earn them and you can't lose them.
Original post by drowzee
You are ridiculously stupid. What pain and suffering are you talking about? MOST sociopaths are normal functioning human beings that do not break the law. Shall we just take away their rights as humans then?


This.
Original post by Choo Train
This.




Posted from TSR Mobile
I second this aswell.Human rights are for ALL Humans,regardless of who they are.
Plus, only a minority of sociopaths actually go around harming people. Lyssandra is just thinking of some stereotype.
Original post by Lyssandrah
No. They are not good people. They only abide by the laws to stay out of jail, not because it's the right thing to do. So don't treat them like they're normal people. And you obviously never read Robert Hare's Without Conscience or Martha Stout's The Sociopath Next Door. Just because they abide by the law doesn't mean they don't commit immoral actions. They lie, cheat, steal from their loved ones or people who trust them, sleep around, practice underhanded tactics, are bullies, take pleasure in emotionally abusing others. These deeds aren't illegal, but they are nevertheless wrong. They are NOT good people. So don't treat them as such. It's the definition of a sociopath; a user and abuser of other people. These two aforementioned authors of those books are seasoned, veteran, leading experts in the field of psychiatry and have profound knowledge of the disorder. I got this knowledge from these people. Are you calling them stupid?

And I was talking about social nonconformity--not crimes. Social nonconformity isn't crime--it's a pattern of behavior that is unchaste, immoral, ignoble or otherwise considered taboo by the rest of society. As forementioned above, it can range from things like promiscuity and lying to emotionally and psychologically abusing others. You sociopath-apologists like to split hairs and make it seem like they're innocent people who live their lives quietly never bothering anybody. If they do that, they are not a sociopath. Sociopaths/Psychopaths/AsPDs are social predators--it's the very definition of the disorder.

People are images and reflections of yourself, so maybe it is you who is foolish. In fact, it could be argued that these parasites want you to believe that since most don't commit crimes, they're innocent or good or reasonable.

Anyways, these leeches have no place in society and need to be removed, since there is no cure. We don't need sociopaths in society.




Posted from TSR Mobile

Leeches?Parasites? I think we don't need people who think like you, who feels that anyone who doesn't behave in a way they like should be removed from society.
We don't need people like you in society.Or more accurately,running it.
Original post by Kadak
Posted from TSR Mobile

Leeches?Parasites? I think we don't need people who think like you, who feels that anyone who doesn't behave in a way they like should be removed from society.
We don't need people like you in society.Or more accurately,running it.


Maybe we don't need people like you in society supporting, defending, advocating for and excusing social deviants who cause pain just because they don't act illegally. We need people who are here in life to contribute to making the world a better place for its own sake--not out of some self-centered desire. It's the reason why sociopaths are considered parasitic--they just drain you dry, whether it's financially, emotionally, psychologically or functionally. At this point, it doesn't matter whether they're criminals or not. Sociopaths, whether they act criminally or not, do not help society. They're like a cancerous cell or tumor--just sitting there while all of the other normal cells do their job. All it takes is just one--one cell to mess everything up by either defectively obstructing the body's normal function or by just simply being a bystander. Contrary to popular belief, there are no shades of grey. It's either black or white, you either help and contribute or do nothing. And even if you may not set out to cause harm or bring society down, your parasitic lifestyle characterized by simply not doing anything to help inadvertently brings society down. You're either good or evil and if you don't help, you're making things worse. It's the reason why so many countries are impoverished--because we Americans, for all our richness and all our abundance in natural resources, food, shelter and money, will not even take the time to help out another person in need. There are children starving out there with bodies so malnourished, they look skeletal. Does the fact that most Americans don't kill or commit crimes change or help any of that? The same applies to sociopaths.

We were here in life to serve others and to help contribute to society. We weren't made to just cruise our way through life through comfort, pleasure, money and or convenience and to live comfortable, law-abiding, self-serving lives where we lazily and intentionally ignore the needs of others. Sociopaths ARE a problem. It's one of the very reasons why everything in the world is falling apart. And I hear that Eskimos actually kill sociopaths whether they're criminals or not. Because they don't do **** and their unwillingness to contribute and adamant determination to coast through life without working or helping any other person in need is all it takes to topple a society. I even hear their laziness and self-centeredness is so profound that it's contagious--it spreads even to more conscientious, hard-working and diligent people.

Face it--the world is better off without sociopaths. And when they go, no one will shed any tears for them or miss them--unless perhaps they are a loved one, which all of them are in some form or another. But other than that, sociopaths are useless. It's not discrimination--they're freeloaders. They're like a cell that just sits there, doing nothing to help support bodily function, a player on a time that just stands there, making the team weaker, a seed that won't grow. Does the fact that the cell's inactivity being the very catalyst of the body's shutdown somehow changes because that cell wasn't cancerous? Does the fact that the player's unwillingness to participate in that baseball game being the primary reason why they lost change because that player never attacked his own teammates? Does the fact that the seed's inability to grow and flourish into a healthy, edible plant which consequentially affected the whole crop of plants somehow change because that seed wasn't diseased or poisonous?

Hence the entire meaning of several passages of the Bible discussing the subject.

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon." - Matthew 6:24

"Those who are not with me are against me, and those who do not gather with me are scattering." - Luke 11:23

"So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth." - Revelation 3:16

The whole fence-sitting mentality and the purely manufactured and realistically fictitious character alignment of neutrality or moral grayness doesn't work with God. And that's what I love about God. Because this world has become so spiritually and morally insensitive and corrupt that it doesn't matter what kinds of people really live in our society (whether they're sleeping around, lying, cheating, practicing sexual immorality of all types, emotionally abusive, etc.) as long as they don't break the laws of society or kill or rape anyone. It just seems like people have self-made standards of morality or legality based solely on degree of effect on people in society and not truly because of how moral or immoral an act is. It's why most sociopaths don't commit acts that are crimes--so they can get away with the acts that aren't, yet nevertheless immoral.

So maybe our finite, flawed, narrow-minded and morally-skewed standards of right and wrong are the systems that need abolishment, not my so-called bigoted, "anti-human" views. Sociopaths are NOT human. It takes more than an innate physiologic make-up and biological classification of human to qualify as one. These people lack compassion, empathy, care and respect for their fellow man and do not care to. And you can't place the blame all on their psychological make-up or "genetics" for their utter disregard and total lack of consideration for the rights of others. Selfishness is a choice.

Why care for the uncaring? Why love the unloving? Why respect the disrespectful? Why do right by the unabiding? It's not sad sociopaths are being treated that way--it's just. It is a matter of reaping what you sow, getting your just desserts, what comes around goes around; karma. You cannot be abusing/disregarding the rights of others and then expect to be treated well in return. That's not how it works. And it shouldn't work that way. They made their bed, now they will lay in it.
Original post by Lyssandrah
x


Curious, are you a sociopath?

Also, do you like Sherlock?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by XcitingStuart
Curious, are you a sociopath?

Also, do you like Sherlock?


Me, a sociopath? How can I be a sociopath when I myself am saying they are useless? To say they are useless when I myself am one is not only hypocritical and contradictory, but utter pointless. If I am a sociopath and I am the one saying they're worthless and have no function in society, I would be, in effect, calling myself useless, which is the exact opposite of the essential qualities that make a sociopath; their underlying narcissism and inflated sense of self-importance and worth. Sociopaths actually believe themselves to be the superior species, something I find quite ridiculous and comical. No, in this regard, I'd be a sufferer of depression, Borderline Personality Disorder or perhaps Bipolar depression than a sociopath/AsPD.

And if I was a sociopath, I would not only see myself as better than others but I'd also be advocating for that kind of mindset. I would even see things relatively--no right or wrong, just actions. The whole concept of responsibility and morality would be completely alien, even meaningless to me and I would see things in shades of grey--not in black and white. Because to see things as they are--black and white, would be to truly admit to one's self that they are wrong and they are flawed and they have done wrong. It would be to truly accept responsibility and face accountability for one's actions. It also means that one can't do whatever the hell they want without consequences. Which is the whole point behind the so-called biological or genetic wiring of a sociopath's personality--a refusal to take responsibility. It's what makes them narcissists. They will NOT take responsibility because in their self-deluded, egotistical, self-manufactured fantasy world, they, and everything they do are perfection. That is pathological narcissism that borders on a God-like complex.

So how can I be a sociopath when nearly all of the qualities I display are in near-stark contrast with the essential traits that define a sociopath?
Original post by Lyssandrah
Me, a sociopath? How can I be a sociopath when I myself am saying they are useless? To say they are useless when I myself am one is not only hypocritical and contradictory, but utter pointless. If I am a sociopath and I am the one saying they're worthless and have no function in society, I would be, in effect, calling myself useless, which is the exact opposite of the essential qualities that make a sociopath; their underlying narcissism and inflated sense of self-importance and worth. Sociopaths actually believe themselves to be the superior species, something I find quite ridiculous and comical. No, in this regard, I'd be a sufferer of depression, Borderline Personality Disorder or perhaps Bipolar depression than a sociopath/AsPD.

And if I was a sociopath, I would not only see myself as better than others but I'd also be advocating for that kind of mindset. I would even see things relatively--no right or wrong, just actions. The whole concept of responsibility and morality would be completely alien, even meaningless to me and I would see things in shades of grey--not in black and white. Because to see things as they are--black and white, would be to truly admit to one's self that they are wrong and they are flawed and they have done wrong. It would be to truly accept responsibility and face accountability for one's actions. It also means that one can't do whatever the hell they want without consequences. Which is the whole point behind the so-called biological or genetic wiring of a sociopath's personality--a refusal to take responsibility. It's what makes them narcissists. They will NOT take responsibility because in their self-deluded, egotistical, self-manufactured fantasy world, they, and everything they do are perfection. That is pathological narcissism that borders on a God-like complex.

So how can I be a sociopath when nearly all of the qualities I display are in near-stark contrast with the essential traits that define a sociopath?


You never asked my second question.

Do you like Sherlock?
Original post by XcitingStuart
You never asked my second question.

Do you like Sherlock?


Okay, smart-aleck. I'll answer your second "question".

No, I haven't read Sherlock, so I'm not sure if I would like him or the series.

I didn't answer this question because the whole tone and attitude behind it felt very sarcastic and flippant, which gives the impression that it sounded more like a rhetorical question than a serious question desperate for an answer. In other words, it felt more like question almost made to mock me than really demanding of an answer from me.

And if this has anything to do with the notorious, almost universally-known quote by Sherlock Holmes, that being "I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning sociopath! Do your research", then this is even more pointless.....
Original post by Lyssandrah
Okay, smart-aleck. I'll answer your second "question".

No, I haven't read Sherlock, so I'm not sure if I would like him or the series.

I didn't answer this question because the whole tone and attitude behind it felt very sarcastic and flippant, which gives the impression that it sounded more like a rhetorical question than a serious question desperate for an answer. In other words, it felt more like question almost made to mock me than really demanding of an answer from me.

And if this has anything to do with the notorious, almost universally-known quote by Sherlock Holmes, that being "I'm not a psychopath. I'm a high-functioning sociopath! Do your research", then this is even more pointless.....


No, not at all. I told someone, and they said to ask those two questions, so I did.
I'd like to say something. This is just as justified as telling an autisic person that they can't participate in things because some autistic people are jerks or they tend to be insensitive, but you find jerks everywhere in all groups, religions, cultures and everywhere.Not all sociopaths do this stuff you're accusing them of, and a part of their brain is actually physically wired differently in a way that doesn't allow them to express things and connect to people like most can; it's not like they can choose how they were born. I'm sure they already feel different as it is. They do still have feelings just like us(though they can only feel negative emotions and very limited happiness.) Sociopaths have commited suicide in the past because they are lonely, terribly bored, and have an utter disconnection to society and I'm sure that some of them hate it. Perhaps, they just want somebody who is equal to them, and keep them occupied.

Perhaps, we just need better doctors that specialize in sociopathy. Some sociopaths do genuinely want to change. Not all do, no, but some do, so I don't think for an instint that it's right hold all sociopaths to the same standard as ones that have hurt people. Many sociopaths, though it's true that they have a lack of empathy, it doesn't mean they don't have sense. Many obey they law and go their whole life without breaking it, and seclude themselves as it is because they find no need to hurt people. Nobody is the same, and for some there are even reasons sociopaths become sociopaths, like head injuries and past child neglect/abuse and other things, and, from what I know, the main thing that often keeps sociopaths from connecting to people in a positive way is a major innability to trust.I don't agree with descrimination, no.I am autistic, I'm not a sociopath, but I will show them the empathy that they don't know how to feel.Call me crazy, but they are human just like we are. And a lot of sociopaths help in our society whether you know it or not. There may be bad things , but for some there is also good things, and actually, descriminating them won't do good either, and you're liable to make some people angry, especially diagnosed "sociopaths" that are just trying to live to themselves and aren't doing anybody any harm. If I was somebody like that, I think I'd sure be angry and feel like causing some problems.Quit stereotyping things, because you'll just make everything worse.It's just like telling a Japanese person not to come to America because of what their ancesstors did in the past to Pearl Harbor.
(edited 7 years ago)
I'd like to say something. This is just as justified as telling an autisic person that they can't participate in things because some autistic people are jerks or they tend to be insensitive, but you find jerks everywhere in all groups, religions, cultures and everywhere.

Not all sociopaths do this stuff you're accusing them of, and a part of their brain is actually physically wired differently in a way that doesn't allow them to express things and connect to people like most can; it's not like they can choose how they were born. I'm sure they already feel different as it is. They do still have feelings just like us(though they can only feel negative emotions and very limited happiness.) Sociopaths have commited suicide in the past because they are lonely, terribly bored, and have an utter disconnection to society and I'm sure that some of them hate it. Perhaps, they just want somebody who is equal to them, and keep them occupied. Perhaps, we just need better doctors that specialize in sociopathy. Some sociopaths do genuinely want to change. Not all, no, but some do, and I don't think for an instint that it's right hold all sociopaths on the same standard as ones that have hurt people. Many sociopaths, though it's true that they have a lack of empathy, it doesn't mean they don't have sense. Many obey they law and go their whole life without breaking it, and seclude themselves as it is because they find no need to hurt people.

Nobody is the same, and for some there are even reasons sociopaths become sociopaths, like head injuries and past child neglect/abuse and other things, and, from what I know, the main thing that often keeps sociopaths from connecting to people in a positive way is a major innability to trust.

I don't agree with descrimination, no.

I am autistic, I'm not a sociopath, but I will show them the empathy that they don't know how to feel.

Call me crazy, but they are human just like we are. And a lot of sociopaths help in our society whether you know it or not. There may be bad things , but for some there is also good things, and actually, descriminating them won't do good either, and you're liable to make some people angry, especially diagnosed
Reply 96
In principle yes in reality not so much... there;s a recent case back home down under of a police chief saying he had to apply the same rights to a murder/rape suspect as anyone else and the family walked out of the trial calling him a disgrace.

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