The Student Room Group

Getting into engineering with a philosophy degree

Hi there,

So yes, I have a 2:1 philosophy degree from King's College London. How would I become an engineer?

I know what you'll say - I need an engineering degree. That might be a problem for me since I would have to self-fund a second degree. Would apprenticeships be a suitable option?

Here's a little about me, if you don't believe a philosopher can become an engineer! (TLDR - I'm smart with good grades and technically minded - I'm currently employed as a programmer):

I am academically very strong and always have been. All A and A* at GCSE, including A* in maths, physics and chemistry. I rebelled a bit for A level... I was down to do all sciences and maths, but switched to english, history and religious studies. Gained AAA.

First year of uni I chose to do modules in computer science. This experience helped me get my programming job. I took many technical philosophy modules, including various branches of formal logic and formal language theory. Very high grades in some modules including 98% and 95%.



Any help greatly appreciated!!
Original post by tomorrowtomorrow
Hi there,

So yes, I have a 2:1 philosophy degree from King's College London. How would I become an engineer?

I know what you'll say - I need an engineering degree. That might be a problem for me since I would have to self-fund a second degree. Would apprenticeships be a suitable option?

Here's a little about me, if you don't believe a philosopher can become an engineer! (TLDR - I'm smart with good grades and technically minded - I'm currently employed as a programmer):

I am academically very strong and always have been. All A and A* at GCSE, including A* in maths, physics and chemistry. I rebelled a bit for A level... I was down to do all sciences and maths, but switched to english, history and religious studies. Gained AAA.

First year of uni I chose to do modules in computer science. This experience helped me get my programming job. I took many technical philosophy modules, including various branches of formal logic and formal language theory. Very high grades in some modules including 98% and 95%.



Any help greatly appreciated!!


Yes, an apprenticeship would also be a suitable option, if you can get onto one. I think self-funding a second degree is a much more likely option, though, unfortunately. Could you maybe continue working as a programmer for a few years to fund it?
Reply 2
You'll certainly need very strong mathematical knowledge. Not sure where you'll be able to get that.
Original post by Smack
Yes, an apprenticeship would also be a suitable option, if you can get onto one. I think self-funding a second degree is a much more likely option, though, unfortunately. Could you maybe continue working as a programmer for a few years to fund it?



1.

Are apprenticeships few and far between then?

2.

Maybe I could... but with degrees costing £9k/yr, I think it would take me a very long time to save up that amount of cash.



[QUOTE=Namige;46967289]You'll certainly need very strong mathematical knowledge. Not sure where you'll be able to get that.

That's probably true. Maybe I could take A-levels in maths and/or further maths and/or physics in my spare time. As I say I always had a strong aptitude for maths but I haven't studied it in a long time.
Original post by tomorrowtomorrow

1.

Are apprenticeships few and far between then?

2.

Maybe I could... but with degrees costing £9k/yr, I think it would take me a very long time to save up that amount of cash.



They're certainly much more difficult to get onto than many suspect, given how much we keep going on about how we need to stop sending so many school leavers to university and create more on the job learning.

Does it have to be in England? I know universities in Scotland can be cheaper.
Maybe getting into a Master for programmers with your background is the easier option? Because engineering is much more than programming and if you primarly want to program later, there may be faster ways, than a degree or apprenticeship. Getting experience and saving up money won't hurt. Going abroad to save tuition fees could be also an option, e.g. the Netherlands have good engineering degrees and much lower tuition fees.
Original post by Smack
They're certainly much more difficult to get onto than many suspect, given how much we keep going on about how we need to stop sending so many school leavers to university and create more on the job learning.

Does it have to be in England? I know universities in Scotland can be cheaper.


Right. I should probably look at some then and see what the requirements are.

You're right Scotland is far cheaper. I was looking at universities in other European countries too like Denmark which is free.

Think I definitely need to more seriously think about whether any of these options are feasible.

Original post by Nathanielle
Maybe getting into a Master for programmers with your background is the easier option? Because engineering is much more than programming and if you primarly want to program later, there may be faster ways, than a degree or apprenticeship. Getting experience and saving up money won't hurt. Going abroad to save tuition fees could be also an option, e.g. the Netherlands have good engineering degrees and much lower tuition fees.


Well the thing is that programming is NOT what I want to end up doing. If it was, I would keep working at my job now and gain as much experience of this field as I could. As it is, I think I have quite a good idea of what the software development field is about and I'm pretty sure I would rather do something a bit different if I can.

Yes, I think I should definitely look at the Netherlands, I know a couple of people who have studied there and they have all had very good experiences.

Thank you very much for your help people, I might come back to this thread soon once I've come up with a more concrete idea of what I want to do.
I don't know that much about engineering so forgive me if I give you flawed info but my father in law works in nuclear engineering (he is very high-up and runs employment on site) and the sort of thing employers want is not 'great brains' (well obviously to a certain extent) but they want site experience. He has banned employment on his sites of grads with no experience. In the industry they are not very well regarded at all. If you really want to become an engineer I would suggest gaining appropriate experience.

He actually is starting a programme employing assistant engineers to train on site, he will be employing individuals with site experience in roles such as these because it is far more valuable than pure intelligence alone.
Reply 8
Could you get one through the RAF or something perhaps? I'm not sure if that's possible though, but for some reason part of me thinks it is.
Original post by Georgie_M
I don't know that much about engineering so forgive me if I give you flawed info but my father in law works in nuclear engineering (he is very high-up and runs employment on site) and the sort of thing employers want is not 'great brains' (well obviously to a certain extent) but they want site experience. He has banned employment on his sites of grads with no experience. In the industry they are not very well regarded at all. If you really want to become an engineer I would suggest gaining appropriate experience.

He actually is starting a programme employing assistant engineers to train on site, he will be employing individuals with site experience in roles such as these because it is far more valuable than pure intelligence alone.


I can understand that. I think whether you need a degree probably depends very much on what area of engineering one is trying go get into.

Maybe I should try and look to see if I can get into any sort of job like that. But then again I think that academics are probably my personal strength, and also I don't have much experience as it stands which I think would be of much use in getting an engineering job now. My most relevant experience is probably my GCSE in design tech. :s-smilie:

Anyway thanks for the advice. Ill try and look out for years in industry when I'm looking at degrees
Possibly look into open university options? Can continue working, is much cheaper and will help you get your foot in the door on the qualifications side. As you don't have a-levels in maths/physics I suspect any full-time university course is going to involve access/foundations to cover that, which adds more to the time and money required.

I have no idea if you're able to compile that with industrial placements, but look it up as I suspect you probably can get credit for it and it gives you the basic experience into the industry. The thing about placements is usually it will be something like a 12-month full time job, and they don't pay great (because you're not qualified). Some can be reasonable, but I suspect you're earning much more now so depending on your outgoings (rent etc.) you may need to make sure you have some savings built up so you can afford to do this for a period of time.
What kind of engineering are you looking into?

I am going the opposite way, sort of - have an engineering degree and switching to computing.
Also, are you sure you don't like programming? Or do you just not like the job you have right now?

I am employed currently as a programmer, too, and have worked at a few companies. Some are definitely much more exciting than others.
Original post by Georgie_M
I don't know that much about engineering so forgive me if I give you flawed info but my father in law works in nuclear engineering (he is very high-up and runs employment on site) and the sort of thing employers want is not 'great brains' (well obviously to a certain extent) but they want site experience. He has banned employment on his sites of grads with no experience. In the industry they are not very well regarded at all. If you really want to become an engineer I would suggest gaining appropriate experience.

He actually is starting a programme employing assistant engineers to train on site, he will be employing individuals with site experience in roles such as these because it is far more valuable than pure intelligence alone.


And how did those people got their experience? Through an entry level job. Your father is just to lazy to train them and as there are enough unemployed older engineers or engineers who where trained elsewhere wanting to change their job, he takes them. A grad with no experience is a grad with no experience, like your father once was, everybody started with no experience. Of course you have to train them. And knowing something about nuclear engineering, I assure you a simple train on the job with no experience, not even the experience of an apprenticeship or university education is NOT SUFFICIENT. We aren't giving advice to somebody with a related degree and years of experience in a related field or less well paid job in the same field, but someone who has no qualification at all.
Original post by Nathanielle
And how did those people got their experience? Through an entry level job. Your father is just to lazy to train them and as there are enough unemployed older engineers or engineers who where trained elsewhere wanting to change their job, he takes them. A grad with no experience is a grad with no experience, like your father once was, everybody started with no experience. Of course you have to train them. And knowing something about nuclear engineering, I assure you a simple train on the job with no experience, not even the experience of an apprenticeship or university education is NOT SUFFICIENT. We aren't giving advice to somebody with a related degree and years of experience in a related field or less well paid job in the same field, but someone who has no qualification at all.

You completely misunderstood my comment, he employs grads with experience. The assistant engineers he is employing will probably meet be engineers but they are individuals with relevant work experience.

I was merely pointing out that the most valuable thing to the majority of employers is work experience. This is very very very true. What I was intending to highlight was the fact that OP does not have any relevant experience an a degree in psychology and programming experience means jack-all. I attempted to do this in a polite manner, perhaps you need to learn some manners also.
Original post by Georgie_M
You completely misunderstood my comment, he employs grads with experience. The assistant engineers he is employing will probably meet be engineers but they are individuals with relevant work experience.

I was merely pointing out that the most valuable thing to the majority of employers is work experience. This is very very very true. What I was intending to highlight was the fact that OP does not have any relevant experience an a degree in psychology and programming experience means jack-all. I attempted to do this in a polite manner, perhaps you need to learn some manners also.


Yes, I have to admit I have been a bit over the top, but the problem is, what you don't seem to understand is, that while no one will say a graduate student can have the same level of professional experience than an engineer with 3-5 years of experience, this does not help AT ALL and is very naive to say, as you advise somebody to get experience as an engineer before thinking about studying engineering, because that is what counts, while you can't get that experience without an engineering degree.(Only in those engineering roles, you don't need to study for and are only called engineering, because the UK doesn't know another word for it. But these are then no real engineering jobs.) Especially in a field like nuclear engineering, which is definitely NOT the field for creative self-employers, but requires a degree in physics or engineering, mostly thermodynamics, nuclear engineering, etc.

I understood very well, that you meant experienced graduates. That is exactly, why your answer is not helpful and not related to the thread starter's problem.

With a philosophy degree you can't get work experience and all those unemployed young students will never have the chance to make the career of those, refusing to train them, because they can do it. When they were young, this would have been unthinkable. On the other hand you have unemployed experienced people, because they are "too old" and more and more jobs requirering a PHD. As you see, purely economic reasons, but sadly not the sign, that young people could work their way up without spending money for a university education.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Nathanielle
Yes, I have to admit I have been a bit over the top, but the problem is, what you don't seem to understand is, that while no one will say a graduate student can have the same level of professional experience than an engineer with 3-5 years of experience, this does not help AT ALL and is very naive to say, as you advise somebody to get experience as an engineer before thinking about studying engineering, because that is what counts, while you can't get that experience without an engineering degree.(Only in those engineering roles, you don't need to study for and are only called engineering, because the UK doesn't know another word for it. But these are then no real engineering jobs.) Especially in a field like nuclear engineering, which is definitely NOT the field for creative self-employers, but requires a degree in physics or engineering, mostly thermodynamics, nuclear engineering, etc.

I understood very well, that you meant experienced graduates. That is exactly, why your answer is not helpful and not related to the thread starter's problem.

With a philosophy degree you can't get work experience and all those unemployed young students will never have the chance to make the career of those, refusing to train them, because they can do it. When they were young, this would have been unthinkable. On the other hand you have unemployed experienced people, because they are "too old" and more and more jobs requirering a PHD. As you see, purely economic reasons, but sadly not the sign, that young people could work their way up without spending money for a university education.


No no no I think I was still not clear, I did not mean experience as an engineer I said 'on site' experience. What this means is working on sites which utilise engineers - not as an engineer.

I don't think OP is particularly going to want to give up a job in programming to be a labourer. However if you were passionate and determined then that on site experience would be more relevant to future employers - possibly opening the door for apprenticeships?

I don't see what individuals who are too old have to do with anything. My father in law doesn't have any degree just 40 years of on site experience and NVQs.

I did say at the beginning I my post that I do not know very much about engineering as whole but I still think that most avenues for apprenticeships (I don't even know if you can do apprenticeships but everyone is talking about it on this thread?) would require on site experience. It would also allow you to make connections in the industry. It would also look good on a university application if OP really wanted to do it as it would show a passion for the subject.
Original post by Georgie_M
No no no I think I was still not clear, I did not mean experience as an engineer I said 'on site' experience. What this means is working on sites which utilise engineers - not as an engineer.

I don't think OP is particularly going to want to give up a job in programming to be a labourer. However if you were passionate and determined then that on site experience would be more relevant to future employers - possibly opening the door for apprenticeships?

I don't see what individuals who are too old have to do with anything. My father in law doesn't have any degree just 40 years of on site experience and NVQs.

I did say at the beginning I my post that I do not know very much about engineering as whole but I still think that most avenues for apprenticeships (I don't even know if you can do apprenticeships but everyone is talking about it on this thread?) would require on site experience. It would also allow you to make connections in the industry. It would also look good on a university application if OP really wanted to do it as it would show a passion for the subject.


Okay, that explains a lot. I come from the other way round. Just to clarify: Engineering is a very broad field, especially in the UK. Depending on what you want to work later on, a university degree (with Master!) maybe crucial or totally senseless. In addition we have the problem that in our time, it is no more possible to work your way up only because of experience, you often need a qualification, although the UK seems to reevaluate the system of "only university can get you in a job".

1) Apprenticeship: The big advantage of an apprenticeship is that you are already spending your education in the company and odds are pretty good, to get a job afterwards, which is - in the technical field - safer and better paid than a university grad (maybe not from Imperial, but from xyz or a not-at-all-vocational degree). Considering with what you want to spend your day, this can also be more fulfilling. Someone planning to work with his hands, will strongly dislike hourse of maths and thinking about which Finite Element method is the best to simulate the problem. In addition it will be paid and that is why, you can recommand doing one, because most people will be able to reach what they want to do without spending their time in a degree, which doesn't fit their needs.
Apprenticeships generally require onyl A Levels or GSCE. On site experience is of course nice to have, but they are originally designed for school leavers and you start with the absolute basics.

2) University: Crucial, if you e.g. want to be the one developing the next type of fuel rods. You simply need the theoretical background to understand those highly complicated problems and time to read through all the material, time you get during your studies or your PHD, but not when you come home totally exhausted after an eight hour shift. If you plan to get there, on-site experience is research experience, which you can't get, without having a reason e.g. in during vacation or during your studies. (In my eyes a lot of British degrees, does not really allow you to get that experience, how small it might acutually be, but anyone starts small.)

Sorry, pretty late, so the answer does not fit as well, as it should.
Reply 18
I have the same problem. I study A-level math, physics and philosophy. I am currently working towards a philosophy degree, but I also really like the technical side of maths and physics, which is reflected perfectly in engineering since you've got to apply these theoretical knowledge to a real-world context, which is very exciting. So I'm stuck in a dilemma whether to do 1), a degree in philosophy and if interested, then do engineering apprenticeship or 2), an engineering degree, but missing out the fun in philosophy. Since this thread is 8 years ago, hopefully it worked out for you, tomorrowtomorrow.

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