Women have more responsibilities than men.
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Original post by Idle
I think the simple solution would be don't end up living with a guy who isn't willing to do his fair share?
You can't really predict what sort of father a guy will be until the baby actually arrives. Some men actually get jealous of the baby because he isn't the centre of the womans universe anymore. I suppose you can predict some warning signs by looking at the man's mother and father. A mother who does everything for her son and treats him like a spoiled prince is far less likely to help out with chores and childcare as he has been brought up having everything done for him but then you could argue that it is actually women's fault for moulding their sons into spoilt brats.
Original post by Monkey.Man
how?
This is a huge debate in the TSR and, honestly, after trying to demonstrate to men on this I'm quite tired of trying to persuade people here's some ways of learning about 21st century sexism (or if there is any)
•
Here is an excellent website called the 'everyday sexism project: http://everydaysexism.com/
•
Another way of deciding this debate for yourself is by asking women you know what they think. Listen to their views, you might find it interesting
•
Create a thread on here about it and watch everyone go nuts
You can still disagree with me but I thought you might find it interesting to read a woman's view point. Let me know what you think - I'd be happy to hear about it.
Original post by OrlaCarmel
This is a huge debate in the TSR and, honestly, after trying to demonstrate to men on this I'm quite tired of trying to persuade people here's some ways of learning about 21st century sexism (or if there is any)
You can still disagree with me but I thought you might find it interesting to read a woman's view point. Let me know what you think - I'd be happy to hear about it.
•
Here is an excellent website called the 'everyday sexism project: http://everydaysexism.com/
•
Another way of deciding this debate for yourself is by asking women you know what they think. Listen to their views, you might find it interesting
•
Create a thread on here about it and watch everyone go nuts
You can still disagree with me but I thought you might find it interesting to read a woman's view point. Let me know what you think - I'd be happy to hear about it.
well instead of giving me a list, could you please actually give me some actual examples? and in terms of inequality, if men and women are equal, then they are individuals, and if they are individuals, they are equal before the law, but they aren't equal before the law, because women have legal privileges, and because legal privilege is based on government, and government is based on force, surely men have the worse end of inequality because they are forced to be inferior to women in the eyes of the law?
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Monkey.Man
well instead of giving me a list, could you please actually give me some actual examples? and in terms of inequality, if men and women are equal, then they are individuals, and if they are individuals, they are equal before the law, but they aren't equal before the law, because women have legal privileges, and because legal privilege is based on government, and government is based on force, surely men have the worse end of inequality because they are forced to be inferior to women in the eyes of the law?
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
I'm sorry that this wasn't clear in my previous response, but I think I should clarify again that I've gotten bored now of trying to persuade men on this site. I know it's a real cop-out but I feel like I'm on a loop
. Although you may not agree with the things I posted I think you might find them interesting anyway. The Everyday Sexism Project is really interesting
. I do agree with you partially though - men do have issues with are completely overlooked. The ideas people have about masculinity in this time are really frustrating.
Women have boobs --> Men do anything on the false (or otherwise) pretence that they can acquire such boobs --> Women with big boobs have fewer responsibilities as a result and have no reason to complain --> Therefore OP has felt compelled to make this thread because she doesn't have big boobs.
Try argue with my deductive reasoning, I dare ya
Try argue with my deductive reasoning, I dare ya
(edited 10 years ago)
Division of labour should be something agreed on within each family because there are a constellation of different circumstances with regards to who works, how regularly and how many hours. Basically, the more you're at home, the more you do the housework.
Families must work together rather than allowing themselves to be divided and ruled by feminist or traditionalist ideology.
As for sex, you do know that while marital rape by a man is illegal, if a man doesn't have sex with his wife it can be classed in the divorce courts as emotional abuse? How's that for victim-blaming?
Families must work together rather than allowing themselves to be divided and ruled by feminist or traditionalist ideology.
As for sex, you do know that while marital rape by a man is illegal, if a man doesn't have sex with his wife it can be classed in the divorce courts as emotional abuse? How's that for victim-blaming?
Original post by Monkey.Man
well instead of giving me a list, could you please actually give me some actual examples? and in terms of inequality, if men and women are equal, then they are individuals, and if they are individuals, they are equal before the law, but they aren't equal before the law, because women have legal privileges, and because legal privilege is based on government, and government is based on force, surely men have the worse end of inequality because they are forced to be inferior to women in the eyes of the law?
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
I'd give you examples, but I can't be bothered to wait for you to discredit all of them along with a dash of mansplaining. She gave you examples, you didn't bother to read them. And legal rights are not the be all and end all of discrimination, I think you know that.
Original post by OrlaCarmel
I'm sorry that this wasn't clear in my previous response, but I think I should clarify again that I've gotten bored now of trying to persuade men on this site. I know it's a real cop-out but I feel like I'm on a loop .
Although you may not agree with the things I posted I think you might find them interesting anyway. The Everyday Sexism Project is really interesting.
I do agree with you partially though - men do have issues with are completely overlooked. The ideas people have about masculinity in this time are really frustrating.
. Although you may not agree with the things I posted I think you might find them interesting anyway. The Everyday Sexism Project is really interesting
. I do agree with you partially though - men do have issues with are completely overlooked. The ideas people have about masculinity in this time are really frustrating.
yes it is frustrating but that doesn't mean I'd call myself an MRA, I can see disadvantages on both fronts, but overall I don't see one gender, in western 2014, to be worse off, so I wouldn't call myself a feminist because that would assume that the burden is upon the female gender more than men - I would consider myself as an individualist, because men and women are individuals and nothing more - individuals make different choices and won't be economically equal, but they won't be culturally equal either if they live utilitarian lifestyles where they get the most happiness from conformity, so in that respect, although it is recognisable that the perfect world is a world where men and women ARE truly only individuals, I don't think there is any point in forcing men and women to be the same or culturally equal; change has to come about naturally, and although we know what is good, it doesn't mean we can make it happen, because it is extra-legal; women and men are legally equal now, so we just have to wait for equality to come about naturally over time, because eventually it probably will happen (and by that I mean within reason, e.g. a lack of gender roles being so apparent, opposed to fashion choices etc)
Original post by Messalina
I'd give you examples, but I can't be bothered to wait for you to discredit all of them along with a dash of mansplaining. She gave you examples, you didn't bother to read them. And legal rights are not the be all and end all of discrimination, I think you know that.
legal rights = equality, plain and simple. everything else is mandatory sexual discrimination. equality before the law means that men and women are equal, but having a legal system where women get more suggests that they NEED more, and that's condescending, isn't it? surely women shouldn't be treated as if they can only succeed through government coming into the picture? that's why I can't stomach today's feminism - it makes women appear so weak compared to men, and that's extremely ironic
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Mockery
Women have boobs --> Men do anything on the false (or otherwise) pretence that they can acquire such boobs --> Women with big boobs have fewer responsibilities as a result and have no reason to complain --> Therefore OP has felt compelled to make this thread because she doesn't have big boobs.
Try argue with my deductive reasoning, I dare ya
Try argue with my deductive reasoning, I dare ya
I have E cup sized boobies thank you very much!
Original post by Monkey.Man
legal rights = equality, plain and simple. everything else is mandatory sexual discrimination. equality before the law means that men and women are equal, but having a legal system where women get more suggests that they NEED more, and that's condescending, isn't it? surely women shouldn't be treated as if they can only succeed through government coming into the picture? that's why I can't stomach today's feminism - it makes women appear so weak compared to men, and that's extremely ironic
So because racist discrimination is illegal, is there no such thing as racism? Codswallop. Social, political and economic inequalities still exist, and changing laws does not go particularly far to changing societal views at all. You need to broaden your horizons.
Original post by vickidc18
I have E cup sized boobies thank you very much!
Want me to take some of those responsibilities off of your hands?
Original post by Monkey.Man
well instead of giving me a list, could you please actually give me some actual examples? and in terms of inequality, if men and women are equal, then they are individuals, and if they are individuals, they are equal before the law, but they aren't equal before the law, because women have legal privileges, and because legal privilege is based on government, and government is based on force, surely men have the worse end of inequality because they are forced to be inferior to women in the eyes of the law?
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
for example, girls are protected from infant child genital mutilation, women get more paternity/maternity leave, women get a lower retirement age, women get domestic abuse shelters when men don't, women get much lower sentences or less chances of being convicted in the first place, women are more likely to be given a guaranteed position in an administrative office due to gender quota enforcements, the law tends heavily to give women more child custody rights, etc
and in terms of society, who said women are even disadvantaged more than men? men are disposable in the eyes of society; men have to work and pay for women, men are seen as disgusting pervert brutes, men are goofy dimwits in so many media portrayals, men can be physically harmed while women can't (which accounts for the neglected statistics of women to men domestic violence), men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements, men have to be strong-seeming or they'll be called cowardly/weak etc. it's a two way street indeed.
You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand sexism or feminism. The reasons you listed show just how important feminism is in fighting destructive, gender-biased stereotypes that disadvantage all genders.
Women do not oppress men. Oppression is something that is done by one group of people to another. All the things you listed (many/most of which feminists regularly argue against!) have been done BY MEN TO MEN.
Given how few executive positions women occupy in all major industries and establishments, the likelihood of women having any kind of serious influence over fields like media, law, government etc is very low.
Women didn't create childcare laws and decided maternity/paternity leave, MEN DID, as they deemed it a "woman's job" to take care of kids. Feminists fight for equal responsibilities when it comes to parenting, and against the idea that women are solely responsible for children.
Women didn't make circumcision legal, MEN DID.
Women didn't decide that they should retire earlier than men, MEN DID. Given the increased life expectancy in the UK and women becoming more and more educated, many women want to keep working well beyond 60.
I'd love to see data for the "women get lower sentences claim", but even if it is true, remember that most judges are MEN. You should ask why YOUR OWN GENDER doesn't think women deserve the same sentences as men.
I can't even deal with the "gender quota" claim. My god, do you not understand what that means?! So few administrative positions are occupied by women that they've had to FORCE MEN to hire them! Those quotas only exist because a certain group is dramatically underrepresented, it's an attempt to combat institutionalised sexism it doesn't cause it!
Men control most mainstream media, so the way both men and women are portrayed is often down to YOUR GENDER.
Women weren't seen as capable to work, which is why it's only now that women work a comparable amount to men. MEN decided that women weren't capable, it WASN'T women!
"Brutes". Women rarely victim-blame women, this "brutes" ideas come from men rationalising sexual assault with "she deserved it" "she was asking for it" "look at how short her dress is".
Domestic violence is tricky because you can compare the instances of violence, but often have to consider the extent of violence. Domestic violence against men is a real and valid issue (one that feminists work to address, not men!). The issue comes when men are more likely to severely beat/injure women, when the physical violence from women is usually less physically harmful. It's a problem, I admit.
"Men get a terrible deal in marriage arrangements" What does this even mean?
"Men get called cowardly/weak" HOW DO YOU NOT EMPATHISE WITH WOMEN WHEN YOU'RE HERE COMPLAINING ABOUT MALE STEREOTYPES?! You really think there are no unpleasant and harmful stereotypes against women? That men are the ONLY people who suffer from this problem?!
Just because you are disadvantaged (e.g. struggling to get childcare) doesn't mean it isn't rooted in traditional sexism (women are the caregivers). Part of feminism is recognising that by fighting these awful stereotypes and issues, all genders will end up happier.
And if you think you won't, then you're just afraid of living in a world when women rule men as men have ruled women. You don't just get your way all the time. You are not a victim. You want to stop being seen as a "brute"? Stop raping, stop blaming, stop evading. It's in your power to change all this - you just want someone else to do it for you.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Messalina
So because racist discrimination is illegal, is there no such thing as racism? Codswallop. Social, political and economic inequalities still exist, and changing laws does not go particularly far to changing societal views at all. You need to broaden your horizons.
I never claimed that making racism illegal means that it stops it from existing. I don't even think racism or sexism (or any kind of peaceful/non-aggressive) discrimination should be illegal because that's against freedom and supposes that hurt feelings trump personal autonomy which really reduces us, as a species, to pathetic weaklings - we are strong and independent individuals no matter our irrelevant biological circumstances. but do you honestly think any rational minded adult in 2014 is honestly racist? or sexist? barely anybody is racist in a meaningful sense, but with that said, people aren't perfect; some people are idiots, some people are simply evil, but what are you going to do about this problem? kill everybody that disagrees with the rational view that men and women, and white and black (and every other ethnic minority) are equal? you'll never get rid of a vast minority of evil/stupid people and it's useless/a waste of time to try. just accept that with each decade that passes we become a more equal society. and that isn't because of coercive laws against individual freedom, it's because of better education and evolving individual values.
Original post by Messalina
You're missing out on some primetime mansplaining, I wonder what bad experiences they've had with women that have filled them with so much misogyny.
I love that word so much.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I love that word so much.
Yay Tyrion! And I know, so much of it going on today... men sure do like explaining things to the poor simple minded womenfolk, without them women would understand nothing of this big wide world (and all the evil feminists lurking within it)
In a healthy society men have a responsibility to be high earning providers so that their wives don't have to work outside the home.
I work hard so that by my 30s I'll be a millionaire. Then I'll find a young, intelligent, pretty, feminine virgin (probably importing one from overseas given the lack of marriageable women in this country), wife her up and pump her full of babies.
My responsibilities:
- providing a luxurious lifestyle for my family (mansion, nice cars, private education for the kids), making the decisions, being in charge
Her responsibilities:
- make lots of babies, be a fantastic mother, support me in my career, provide lots of sex so I don't get tempted by one of my secretaries
Given my expected wealth I will probably hire a cleaning lady to keep the mansion clean and possibly a chef to cook lots of healthy meals (or the wife can cook - cleaning is less fun though so will be outsourced).
The goals of the marriage will be to bring up lots of healthy, confident, successful children:
The boys will be taught to be masculine and sent to Eton or similar, with the aim of going to Oxbridge and then become a rich lawyer / doctor / banker / businessman.
The girls will be taught to be feminine and I may have them homeschooled to avoid them being poisoned with feminism. I hope they would marry rich men while young and would consider myself a failure if they became sluts.
I work hard so that by my 30s I'll be a millionaire. Then I'll find a young, intelligent, pretty, feminine virgin (probably importing one from overseas given the lack of marriageable women in this country), wife her up and pump her full of babies.
My responsibilities:
- providing a luxurious lifestyle for my family (mansion, nice cars, private education for the kids), making the decisions, being in charge
Her responsibilities:
- make lots of babies, be a fantastic mother, support me in my career, provide lots of sex so I don't get tempted by one of my secretaries
Given my expected wealth I will probably hire a cleaning lady to keep the mansion clean and possibly a chef to cook lots of healthy meals (or the wife can cook - cleaning is less fun though so will be outsourced).
The goals of the marriage will be to bring up lots of healthy, confident, successful children:
The boys will be taught to be masculine and sent to Eton or similar, with the aim of going to Oxbridge and then become a rich lawyer / doctor / banker / businessman.
The girls will be taught to be feminine and I may have them homeschooled to avoid them being poisoned with feminism. I hope they would marry rich men while young and would consider myself a failure if they became sluts.
Original post by Messalina
Yay Tyrion! And I know, so much of it going on today... men sure do like explaining things to the poor simple minded womenfolk, without them women would understand nothing of this big wide world (and all the evil feminists lurking within it)
I know, I was literally browsing the forum and thinking where the **** did all these rightwing middle class men come from?! I mean I know they're here normally but they are out in force today
Original post by Monkey.Man
I never claimed that making racism illegal means that it stops it from existing. I don't even think racism or sexism (or any kind of peaceful/non-aggressive) discrimination should be illegal because that's against freedom and supposes that hurt feelings trump personal autonomy which really reduces us, as a species, to pathetic weaklings - we are strong and independent individuals no matter our irrelevant biological circumstances. but do you honestly think any rational minded adult in 2014 is honestly racist? or sexist? barely anybody is racist in a meaningful sense, but with that said, people aren't perfect; some people are idiots, some people are simply evil, but what are you going to do about this problem? kill everybody that disagrees with the rational view that men and women, and white and black (and every other ethnic minority) are equal? you'll never get rid of a vast minority of evil/stupid people and it's useless/a waste of time to try. just accept that with each decade that passes we become a more equal society. and that isn't because of coercive laws against individual freedom, it's because of better education and evolving individual values.
Yep http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/421746.article
People who pride themselves on their rationality and objective decision making - making biased unconscious decisions that favour men in recruitment, reward and support in employment.
This isn't something that only stupid or evil people do. In the study linked to above it was women as much as men who were making decisions that favoured male applicants. This is a problem that impacts on all of society that is perpetuated by all of society.
Denying it exists or pretending only stupid or evil people perpetuate this bias you're simply making it more likely that the problem will not be addressed.
From an external perspective that makes it seem as if you're not interested in a level playing field - it makes it look like you would prefer to keep the advantage that society gives you.
Original post by drake10
In a healthy society men have a responsibility to be high earning providers so that their wives don't have to work outside the home.
I work hard so that by my 30s I'll be a millionaire. Then I'll find a young, intelligent, pretty, feminine virgin (probably importing one from overseas given the lack of marriageable women in this country), wife her up and pump her full of babies.
My responsibilities:
- providing a luxurious lifestyle for my family (mansion, nice cars, private education for the kids), making the decisions, being in charge
Her responsibilities:
- make lots of babies, be a fantastic mother, support me in my career, provide lots of sex so I don't get tempted by one of my secretaries
Given my expected wealth I will probably hire a cleaning lady to keep the mansion clean and possibly a chef to cook lots of healthy meals (or the wife can cook - cleaning is less fun though so will be outsourced).
The goals of the marriage will be to bring up lots of healthy, confident, successful children:
The boys will be taught to be masculine and sent to Eton or similar, with the aim of going to Oxbridge and then become a rich lawyer / doctor / banker / businessman.
The girls will be taught to be feminine and I may have them homeschooled to avoid them being poisoned with feminism. I hope they would marry rich men while young and would consider myself a failure if they became sluts.
I work hard so that by my 30s I'll be a millionaire. Then I'll find a young, intelligent, pretty, feminine virgin (probably importing one from overseas given the lack of marriageable women in this country), wife her up and pump her full of babies.
My responsibilities:
- providing a luxurious lifestyle for my family (mansion, nice cars, private education for the kids), making the decisions, being in charge
Her responsibilities:
- make lots of babies, be a fantastic mother, support me in my career, provide lots of sex so I don't get tempted by one of my secretaries
Given my expected wealth I will probably hire a cleaning lady to keep the mansion clean and possibly a chef to cook lots of healthy meals (or the wife can cook - cleaning is less fun though so will be outsourced).
The goals of the marriage will be to bring up lots of healthy, confident, successful children:
The boys will be taught to be masculine and sent to Eton or similar, with the aim of going to Oxbridge and then become a rich lawyer / doctor / banker / businessman.
The girls will be taught to be feminine and I may have them homeschooled to avoid them being poisoned with feminism. I hope they would marry rich men while young and would consider myself a failure if they became sluts.
I really hope you are a troll. Because what you have written is misogynistic, classist, elitist, creepy, racist and predatory all in one.
On the other hand, I'm sure the Tories would love to have you
https://www.conservatives.com/Get_involved/Join.aspx
(edited 10 years ago)
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