'Rape culture' not the cause of sexual violence - RAINN
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Original post by 9MmBulletz
rape culture 
Seriously, what is that? Can someone tell me?
Seriously, what is that? Can someone tell me?
It is a ridiculous myth, perpetuated by feminists to maintain their men = aggressor, women = victim ideology.
Original post by Jelkin
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
Firstly, as the report suggests, it makes curtailing sexual violence more difficult because it suggests that it is a cultural problem rather than an issue with a very small, counter-culture minority.
Secondly, it's symptomatic of a larger problem that many feminist activists perpetuate, whereby they alienate themselves by sensationalizing things, rather than taking a more pragmatic approach that would, in all likelihood, be better received by the masses and therefore make a bigger difference to the cause.
Original post by Glass_to_Stone
It's a report outlining recommendations to the 'White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault' byRAINN. RAINN is America's biggest anti-sexual-violence organization, the leading voice for sexual-assault victim advocacy in the US 
I did read the OP.
Original post by james22
Anecdotal evidence is not very good evidence.
Of course that's true in many scientific investigations, but in this context I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that victims of sexual assault have an interest in lying about their experiences? Or that they are not of sound mind and able to make good judgements? I smell sexism.
Original post by ClickItBack
I cannot see why an individual rape victim would be better placed to determine whether rape is due to 'rape culture' than an organisation that deals on behalf of thousands of rape victims and is writing a specifically commissioned report to the highest levels of government.
Not to say that RAINN is infallible, of course, but it is their primary aim to reduce sexual violence so I cannot see why they would make these statements if they did not believe they were actually a better approach.
Not to say that RAINN is infallible, of course, but it is their primary aim to reduce sexual violence so I cannot see why they would make these statements if they did not believe they were actually a better approach.
I wasn't talking about "an individual rape victim", but rather the groups of sexual abuse survivors who developed ideologies of rape culture.
Original post by squeala
I smell sexism.
.
I smell sexism.
.
Ah yes, the good old 'sexism' card.
BTW: the major flaw with anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with the possibility of people lying. May want to educate yourself.
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Original post by squeala
I did read the OP.
Of course that's true in many scientific investigations, but in this context I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that victims of sexual assault have an interest in lying about their experiences? Or that they are not of sound mind and able to make good judgements? I smell sexism.
I wasn't talking about "an individual rape victim", but rather the groups of sexual abuse survivors who developed ideologies of rape culture.
Of course that's true in many scientific investigations, but in this context I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that victims of sexual assault have an interest in lying about their experiences? Or that they are not of sound mind and able to make good judgements? I smell sexism.
I wasn't talking about "an individual rape victim", but rather the groups of sexual abuse survivors who developed ideologies of rape culture.
How does being a victim make anyone an expert on perpetrators' motivations? How does it make them an expert on crime prevention?
If anything victims are less likely to be reliable because their emotions may get in the way of thinking clearly about the issue.
Original post by PythianLegume
How does being a victim make anyone an expert on perpetrators' motivations? How does it make them an expert on crime prevention?
If anything victims are less likely to be reliable because their emotions may get in the way of thinking clearly about the issue.
If anything victims are less likely to be reliable because their emotions may get in the way of thinking clearly about the issue.
Who knows better than a rape victim that rapists rape in order to assert power and dominance over a woman, and that most rapists don't think of women as human beings?
Original post by LightBlueSoldier
Ah yes, the good old 'sexism' card.
BTW: the major flaw with anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with the possibility of people lying. May want to educate yourself.
BTW: the major flaw with anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with the possibility of people lying. May want to educate yourself.
Stop removing this argument from the context of sexual abuse.
Original post by squeala
Who knows better than a rape victim that rapists rape in order to assert power and dominance over a woman, and that most rapists don't think of women as human beings?
Probably someone who has actually studied rape.
Your logic is the same as saying that victims of Tuberculosis as better qualified to treat it than doctors.
Original post by squeala
Stop removing this argument from the context of sexual abuse.
Stop removing this argument from the context of sexual abuse.
I didn't?
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Original post by majmuh24
What's up feminists, not replying?
Guess they can't say anything to a well thought out, rational argument.
At least admit when you've been beaten guys.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Guess they can't say anything to a well thought out, rational argument.
At least admit when you've been beaten guys.Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by caravaggio2
Not renowned for it I am afraid.
Still, nearly12hrs and nobody disputing it.
Perhaps that is a good sign.
Still, nearly12hrs and nobody disputing it.
Perhaps that is a good sign.
I must say, it's disheartening to see the number of responses in the other thread ("What we mean by rape culture") that are essentially repeating points made in this report. I'm generally up for debating anything with anyone, but if the opponent just ignores everything that doesn't support their ideology, there's not a whole lot of point in doing so.
Original post by PythianLegume
Probably someone who has actually studied rape.
Your logic is the same as saying that victims of Tuberculosis as better qualified to treat it than doctors.
Your logic is the same as saying that victims of Tuberculosis as better qualified to treat it than doctors.
Hardly. Rape is a verb. What I'm saying is that women who have experienced male supremacy (and rape culture) at its most evil are valuable to organisations such as RAINN because they have a unique vantage point on why rape is so frighteningly common.
Hate to break it to you, but there are some things university can't teach. Understanding of other human beings is one of those things. You can't just look at a bunch of statistics and psychological theories and truly understand the motivations behind the actions of a rapist. I'm not saying these scientists are completely clueless, but they've made some grave misjudgements that could have been avoided had they bothered to take feminists seriously.
Original post by Jelkin
I don't think rape culture causes sexual violence, but it does make it harder for victims to be taken seriously and has some horrible knock-on effects (see Steubenville).
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
Plus, while of course it is a good idea for everyone (not just women, folks) to take care of their own personal safety, this argument often descends into discussions of what the victim was wearing/how many other sexual partners she's had, or the implication that women should stay in their houses and lock all the doors and never touch a drop of alcohol if they don't want to be raped.
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
Plus, while of course it is a good idea for everyone (not just women, folks) to take care of their own personal safety, this argument often descends into discussions of what the victim was wearing/how many other sexual partners she's had, or the implication that women should stay in their houses and lock all the doors and never touch a drop of alcohol if they don't want to be raped.
*this*
particularly the bit in bold is the reason I'm not replying to this report - it proves something is "false" that I have never believed to be true.
But seeing as I've been harassed in a different thread to come and respond to this thread:
Rape culture harms victims of rape by belittling their experiences and their voices and justifying the actions of their attackers. It makes it harder for victims to seek help and support, it makes it harder for victims to pursue justice. That is why it is worth fighting.
Criminals commit crimes for a whole range of reasons, however my understanding is that the main disincentive to committing a crime isn't the punishment it is the likelihood of being caught and punished. In the case of rape (especially in the case of the majority of rapes that happen within a relationship of some kind) the rapists are well aware that their chances of getting away with a crime are pretty high.
*that* is how I think long term tackling rape culture (to remove the stigma, culture of disbelief and the difficulties around finding justice for victims) could potentially "tackle" or reduce rape from occurring in the first place.
Short term the points in the report about clearer guidance on consent (for all people concerned) is a very positive message...both for potential victims of rape and for any men (on current legal definitions of rape) who're concerned about false accusations of rape.
I'm still not comfortable with "anti-rape" campaigns that target women going out drinking to "protect themselves" or "take care": Mainly because the primary victims of violence in the UK are young men (and the primary instances of rape don't take place in that environment).
I'd rather see campaigns directed at ALL young people who're going out drinking to look after their mates (and strangers) because noone should have their night out ruined by an attack and most rapes take place where the victim knows their attacker so painting this crime as a "stranger danger" type issue detracts from addressing the added stress that comes from being attacked by someone you thought you could trust.
I'd love to see some thought put into how the other most likely victims of rape in the UK could be protected (disabled women) from rape and supported in finding justice if they are made a victim.
How can rape culture make it difficult for victims to be taken seriously when rape culture doesn't exist?
Original post by squeala
Of course that's true in many scientific investigations, but in this context I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that victims of sexual assault have an interest in lying about their experiences? Or that they are not of sound mind and able to make good judgements?
Of course that's true in many scientific investigations, but in this context I totally disagree. Are you suggesting that victims of sexual assault have an interest in lying about their experiences? Or that they are not of sound mind and able to make good judgements?
No, I never said that.
I smell sexism.
You are reading into my post what you want to be seeing, not what I am actually saying. I make a point about anecdotal evidence being bad and you try and turn this into a sexism issue, this is a very dishonest way of arguing. Do you look for sexism in everything? I'm tempted to not make any further points and just end this disscusion ofter reading that, but I don't want others to think that you are right so I will reply.
Back to the point, the reason anecdotal evidence is bad is because it is easy to pick on choose which anecdotes you listen to, and many vitcims will not want to come forwards to talk about their experiance. There could well be (for example), a positive correlation between being raped by someone who thought it was OK and willingness to talk about your experiance.
If you want to back up a point you need cold, hard evidence, and when that evidence already exists (see the OP), it is intelectualyl dishonest to try and refute that with anecdotal evidence.
If you can take these peoples testimonys, classify them, make sure you have a large enough sample, rule out all selection bias and all other factors that make effect their testimony, then and only then will you have something that can be used as evidence.
Original post by Jelkin
I don't think rape culture causes sexual violence, but it does make it harder for victims to be taken seriously and has some horrible knock-on effects (see Steubenville).
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
Plus, while of course it is a good idea for everyone (not just women, folks) to take care of their own personal safety, this argument often descends into discussions of what the victim was wearing/how many other sexual partners she's had, or the implication that women should stay in their houses and lock all the doors and never touch a drop of alcohol if they don't want to be raped.
I've never really been a fan of the phrase, "Teach men not to rape," by the way. It has horrible connotations and I think it's quite offensive.
And I don't know why anyone gets so aggravated by the term "rape culture". It's a term that serves a specific purpose. If it weren't called that it would be called something else.
Plus, while of course it is a good idea for everyone (not just women, folks) to take care of their own personal safety, this argument often descends into discussions of what the victim was wearing/how many other sexual partners she's had, or the implication that women should stay in their houses and lock all the doors and never touch a drop of alcohol if they don't want to be raped.
I've never really been a fan of the phrase, "Teach men not to rape," by the way. It has horrible connotations and I think it's quite offensive.
Original post by PQ
*this*
particularly the bit in bold is the reason I'm not replying to this report - it proves something is "false" that I have never believed to be true.
But seeing as I've been harassed in a different thread to come and respond to this thread:
Rape culture harms victims of rape by belittling their experiences and their voices and justifying the actions of their attackers. It makes it harder for victims to seek help and support, it makes it harder for victims to pursue justice. That is why it is worth fighting.
Criminals commit crimes for a whole range of reasons, however my understanding is that the main disincentive to committing a crime isn't the punishment it is the likelihood of being caught and punished. In the case of rape (especially in the case of the majority of rapes that happen within a relationship of some kind) the rapists are well aware that their chances of getting away with a crime are pretty high.
*that* is how I think long term tackling rape culture (to remove the stigma, culture of disbelief and the difficulties around finding justice for victims) could potentially "tackle" or reduce rape from occurring in the first place.
Short term the points in the report about clearer guidance on consent (for all people concerned) is a very positive message...both for potential victims of rape and for any men (on current legal definitions of rape) who're concerned about false accusations of rape.
I'm still not comfortable with "anti-rape" campaigns that target women going out drinking to "protect themselves" or "take care": Mainly because the primary victims of violence in the UK are young men (and the primary instances of rape don't take place in that environment).
I'd rather see campaigns directed at ALL young people who're going out drinking to look after their mates (and strangers) because noone should have their night out ruined by an attack and most rapes take place where the victim knows their attacker so painting this crime as a "stranger danger" type issue detracts from addressing the added stress that comes from being attacked by someone you thought you could trust.
I'd love to see some thought put into how the other most likely victims of rape in the UK could be protected (disabled women) from rape and supported in finding justice if they are made a victim.
particularly the bit in bold is the reason I'm not replying to this report - it proves something is "false" that I have never believed to be true.
But seeing as I've been harassed in a different thread to come and respond to this thread:
Rape culture harms victims of rape by belittling their experiences and their voices and justifying the actions of their attackers. It makes it harder for victims to seek help and support, it makes it harder for victims to pursue justice. That is why it is worth fighting.
Criminals commit crimes for a whole range of reasons, however my understanding is that the main disincentive to committing a crime isn't the punishment it is the likelihood of being caught and punished. In the case of rape (especially in the case of the majority of rapes that happen within a relationship of some kind) the rapists are well aware that their chances of getting away with a crime are pretty high.
*that* is how I think long term tackling rape culture (to remove the stigma, culture of disbelief and the difficulties around finding justice for victims) could potentially "tackle" or reduce rape from occurring in the first place.
Short term the points in the report about clearer guidance on consent (for all people concerned) is a very positive message...both for potential victims of rape and for any men (on current legal definitions of rape) who're concerned about false accusations of rape.
I'm still not comfortable with "anti-rape" campaigns that target women going out drinking to "protect themselves" or "take care": Mainly because the primary victims of violence in the UK are young men (and the primary instances of rape don't take place in that environment).
I'd rather see campaigns directed at ALL young people who're going out drinking to look after their mates (and strangers) because noone should have their night out ruined by an attack and most rapes take place where the victim knows their attacker so painting this crime as a "stranger danger" type issue detracts from addressing the added stress that comes from being attacked by someone you thought you could trust.
I'd love to see some thought put into how the other most likely victims of rape in the UK could be protected (disabled women) from rape and supported in finding justice if they are made a victim.
I do appreciate that you don't believe 'rape culture' causes sexual violence per se - however, this is precisely what a lot of feminists do feel. You only have to look through the 'does rape culture exist' thread to see this. Of course you can't be beholden for other people's beliefs, but it is hard to deny that this is a somewhat mainstream belief in activist feminist circles.
It's also for this reason that I dislike the term rape culture. It now has connotations beyond the points you two raise, mostly due precisely to those activist feminists who feel that pornography causes rape or that boys should be taught not to rape.
I'm also not convinced that the culture you two says exists - that of belittling rape victims and trivialising the crime - exists either. I'm not sure how we can go about providing evidence for this either way though, since anything we conjure will be essentially anecdotal (e.g. pointing to one high-profile case is not evidence). I do think, though, that if it did exist in a significant way then RAINN would have mentioned it, at least in passing.
Original post by squeala
Hardly. Rape is a verb. What I'm saying is that women who have experienced male supremacy (and rape culture) at its most evil are valuable to organisations such as RAINN because they have a unique vantage point on why rape is so frighteningly common.
Hate to break it to you, but there are some things university can't teach. Understanding of other human beings is one of those things. You can't just look at a bunch of statistics and psychological theories and truly understand the motivations behind the actions of a rapist. I'm not saying these scientists are completely clueless, but they've made some grave misjudgements that could have been avoided had they bothered to take feminists seriously.
Hate to break it to you, but there are some things university can't teach. Understanding of other human beings is one of those things. You can't just look at a bunch of statistics and psychological theories and truly understand the motivations behind the actions of a rapist. I'm not saying these scientists are completely clueless, but they've made some grave misjudgements that could have been avoided had they bothered to take feminists seriously.
You do realise RAINN works on behalf of and advocates for rape victims? So they've talked with thousands of the people that have 'experienced male supremacy', in your words?
(what a delightful euphemism with which to simultaneously politicise rape and tar all men, by the way)
Bump for relevance to 'does rape culture exist' thread.
Common sense, finally.
Original post by Algorithm69
Oh my God those victim-blaming, sexist, oppressive, misogynistic rape apologists! How dare they! Tumblr, Jezebel, and my Gender Studies textbooks say there is a rape culture. What does RAINN know? Do they think they're experts or something?
LMFAO yeh because neither of those 3 are far left wing bias, typical peasant
Original post by Algorithm69
"Far Left" is just a synonym of "truth, justice, and peace", mate.
...and the cow has just penetrated the donkey
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