Paternity leave: what a load of nonsense.
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Original post by Red one
More? It's just 3 weeks and the baby is either sleeping or ****ting or feeding. I think you're overestimating how much bonding happens and anyway the mother should want that close-bonding for herself not being selfish or anything but she is the one that gave birth to the baby.
Not more paternity leave, just more time spent with their families. Both parents should want that close-bonding, it isn't the mother's child more than the father's. Men aren't only motivated by work and money and it's wrong to assume that just because it's 'natural'
Original post by Red one
That's what not happening with my physiotherapist and I think a large group of new parents they are taking maternity leave and paternity leave at the same time to spend time together looking after the baby. That's what I'm disagreeing with not taking turns.
I think that's quite important to be honest - that way the baby can bond with dad from an early age and the man can be at home to help the woman while she recovers. My dad did most of the looking after me when I was little and I think we probably have a better relationship for it. He ended up taking me home while mum was still in hospital recovering from her c section!
Original post by geoking
Thomas Beatie was born a woman. You're incorrect in thinking that a biological man became pregnant as biological men do not have the right equipment to do so.
And some choices are bad ones. I can decide to play on a motorway, or snort 1kg of coke in 10 minutes, and both are bad ideas. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Live and let live, sure, but if someone does something daft, why should we not point it out? Oh right, it's a moral crime to tell someone not to do something in the age of the liberal.
And some choices are bad ones. I can decide to play on a motorway, or snort 1kg of coke in 10 minutes, and both are bad ideas. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Live and let live, sure, but if someone does something daft, why should we not point it out? Oh right, it's a moral crime to tell someone not to do something in the age of the liberal.
Pointing it out and telling them not to do it are not synonymous. I can point out to someone sacking a pregnant member of staff for being pregnant is a bad idea, I wouldn't tell them not to do it, that's their look out.
Everyone has the right to tell others what they think of what they're doing, but very few people (Judges, Policemen etc.) have the right to tell them not to do it and then only in a limited range of circumstances.
Original post by Le Nombre
Maybe they want to spend time with their new born child?
My employer pays pat leave at full pay so long as you agree to do some drafting and so on from home and come into the office if urgent (but they can call you in from your hols for something urgent as well so hardly radical) so the vast majority of new dads take it and all seem to enjoy it.
Also, **** being defined by my work, I enjoy my work but I don't want to be known solely by what I do.
My employer pays pat leave at full pay so long as you agree to do some drafting and so on from home and come into the office if urgent (but they can call you in from your hols for something urgent as well so hardly radical) so the vast majority of new dads take it and all seem to enjoy it.
Also, **** being defined by my work, I enjoy my work but I don't want to be known solely by what I do.
You can spend time with your baby when you get home, the first few months consist of the baby sleeping he's not going to know you're there, hardly matters.
Well if you're doing some work from home then that's understandable but I wonder why it's full pay, should be a lot less than if you turned up. Well you see with jobs like physio i.e. medical ones and ones involving manual labour you can't really take work home with you.
Original post by Le Nombre
Surely if it's just recovery it should be treated like sick leave and done on an individual basis according to medical advice? Some women don't need that long to recover physically, my Mum gave birth to me on a Saturday and returned to work on the Wednesday.
Your mom is a hero and a hard worker a result of old fashioned upbringing something you rarely see these days. Most people don't actually want to work, they just have to.
As for the sick leave thing, well I disagree. The woman needs to do some bonding with the baby mother-child bonding is very important at the early stage.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
That doesn't matter, it's not baout whether the child will remember it or not. Anyway even if things aren't consciously remembered, subconciously, what happens to a child affects it.
Why is that solely her job? Housework can take a lot of time dependant on the size of the house and what you have to do, and some women are still recovering. It shouldn't be feed baby, clean, feed baby, sweep up, feed baby. How about spending some time with her partner? Also it is exhausting.
Not everyone does. Don't generalise. If you want to be traditional fine, but why force it on others
Why is that solely her job? Housework can take a lot of time dependant on the size of the house and what you have to do, and some women are still recovering. It shouldn't be feed baby, clean, feed baby, sweep up, feed baby. How about spending some time with her partner? Also it is exhausting.
Not everyone does. Don't generalise. If you want to be traditional fine, but why force it on others
It's not solely her job and I actually mentioned how they can take turns, taking time off at the same time is a big NO-NO imo. It's overdoing it and largely the workload is not the big. When the man comes back from work they can switch or the other way around, they can work it out for themselves every couple is different that much we can agree on.
It's exhausting only if you're not really used to doing a lot of work. Cleaning the house is not going to take you no more than 2 hours if the house is a mansion then you should be able to afford cleaners or maybe a nanny even.
I might be traditional by your standard but it's actually more practical and useful to society, a lot of men are being pressured or actually just taking the time off because they want time off work.
Original post by Red one
Pertinent username, however I'm not sure if you're actually serious. Women need to take on more responsibility and actually want to look after the baby rather than getting back out to work a week after birth (in some cases) and relinquishing responsibility to the dad.
Very serious, I can't think why you would think otherwise, father of two kids.
There is a perfectly reasonable debate to be had about how different couples manage and 'allocate' paternity and maternity leave, what works for one doesn't necessary work for another and I'm all in favour of flexibility in each case, however (and with respect) you have let the argument be hijacked by your own offensive and small-minded posts. Shame really.
Original post by geoking
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. First of all, which men have become pregnant? And do you really think nature hasn't spent 100,000's of years making women the optimum mothers over men?
By your logic men would be the optimum fathers, why can't fathers take leave to spend time with their children?
Original post by Red one
You can spend time with your baby when you get home, the first few months consist of the baby sleeping he's not going to know you're there, hardly matters.
Well if you're doing some work from home then that's understandable but I wonder why it's full pay, should be a lot less than if you turned up. Well you see with jobs like physio i.e. medical ones and ones involving manual labour you can't really take work home with you.
Your mom is a hero and a hard worker a result of old fashioned upbringing something you rarely see these days. Most people don't actually want to work, they just have to.
As for the sick leave thing, well I disagree. The woman needs to do some bonding with the baby mother-child bonding is very important at the early stage.
Well if you're doing some work from home then that's understandable but I wonder why it's full pay, should be a lot less than if you turned up. Well you see with jobs like physio i.e. medical ones and ones involving manual labour you can't really take work home with you.
Your mom is a hero and a hard worker a result of old fashioned upbringing something you rarely see these days. Most people don't actually want to work, they just have to.
As for the sick leave thing, well I disagree. The woman needs to do some bonding with the baby mother-child bonding is very important at the early stage.
Ok if he's just sleeping how does the mother bond with them? Apparently that's vital.
Firm policy, law's a talent war as your entire product is what's locked inside the heads of your fee earners and policies like that help attract and retain staff. Also, apparently the partners (who are majority male) regret not having time with their kids as babies, they don't want others to lose out and hardly like they need the extra profits.
Heh at the idea my Mum had an old fashioned upbringing, she's from a Fabian family. Anecdotally I don't think me or my sister suffered, but also why is bonding with the mother important but not the dad?
Original post by yepyepyep
By your logic men would be the optimum fathers, why can't fathers take leave to spend time with their children?
Because they are not needed. The baby will be there after you finish work, it's not going to go anywhere.
Original post by Red one
It's not solely her job and I actually mentioned how they can take turns, taking time off at the same time is a big NO-NO imo. It's overdoing it and largely the workload is not the big. When the man comes back from work they can switch or the other way around, they can work it out for themselves every couple is different that much we can agree on.
It's exhausting only if you're not really used to doing a lot of work. Cleaning the house is not going to take you no more than 2 hours if the house is a mansion then you should be able to afford cleaners or maybe a nanny even.
I might be traditional by your standard but it's actually more practical and useful to society, a lot of men are being pressured or actually just taking the time off because they want time off work.
It's exhausting only if you're not really used to doing a lot of work. Cleaning the house is not going to take you no more than 2 hours if the house is a mansion then you should be able to afford cleaners or maybe a nanny even.
I might be traditional by your standard but it's actually more practical and useful to society, a lot of men are being pressured or actually just taking the time off because they want time off work.
What, and have no time together? Personally I'd rather my partner have time with me at the same time, to share it out.
No, not really. I have a massive house and it takes AGES to clean. And why would you have a nanny? Don't see the point
No it isn't more useful to society. Your way might be right to you, but it isn't right for others, stop pushing it
Original post by Red one
Because they are not needed. The baby will be there after you finish work, it's not going to go anywhere.
Yeah, and it's not like the father might want to see the crucial moments in its childs development, or help the mother in supporting it.
OP - how many children have you raised?
And what are you thoughts on the UK right to either adoptive parent taking paid adoption leave: https://www.gov.uk/adoption-pay-leave for up to a year.
Which applies as long as the child adopted is under 16 IIRR.
And what are you thoughts on the UK right to either adoptive parent taking paid adoption leave: https://www.gov.uk/adoption-pay-leave for up to a year.
Which applies as long as the child adopted is under 16 IIRR.
Original post by Red one
Because they are not needed. The baby will be there after you finish work, it's not going to go anywhere.
yeah but after a full day at work + commute it's not likely you'll have much quality time.
When I'm in the office I'm out of my house from 7am-7pm...there's not a lot of quality time with babies or children to be had after 7pm.
A tired parent isn't likely to be a good parent.
Original post by Red one
I was at my physiotherapist earlier and he informed me after the session that he's going to be away for 3 weeks because he'll be on paternity leave.
I'm all for people living their lives as they wish, and I'm not a conservative in the sense that I feel everybody should settle down and have children; we NEED artistic 'non-breeders' and thinkers or people who simply don't want children, but if they DO have children they really should follow the 'woman look after baby, man work' model for the first year or so. Really, it works. All this piddling about swapping gender roles is nonsense. It goes against nature and it goes against the desire of normal men to earn money. It is entirely NATURAL for a man to want to go out and earn money when his wife has given birth. It is part of his protective mechanism. THAT'S real bonding, not the nonsense spouted by liberals.
We've already established that no employer has to pay more than a 100 pounds or so a week, so why would any man opt for paternity leave pay over normal pay? Any bloke that does so when his wife and child are otherwise well is a freak.
Men are more defined by their work; this should be encouraged and not by bullying him to wash dishes/ load the washing machine. How much time does basic housework take anyway? My guess is 3 hours a day maximum with perhaps a morning once a week of 'deep' cleaning. And, frankly, who cares if the sitting room doesn't get vacuumed for a week?
I'm all for people living their lives as they wish, and I'm not a conservative in the sense that I feel everybody should settle down and have children; we NEED artistic 'non-breeders' and thinkers or people who simply don't want children, but if they DO have children they really should follow the 'woman look after baby, man work' model for the first year or so. Really, it works. All this piddling about swapping gender roles is nonsense. It goes against nature and it goes against the desire of normal men to earn money. It is entirely NATURAL for a man to want to go out and earn money when his wife has given birth. It is part of his protective mechanism. THAT'S real bonding, not the nonsense spouted by liberals.
We've already established that no employer has to pay more than a 100 pounds or so a week, so why would any man opt for paternity leave pay over normal pay? Any bloke that does so when his wife and child are otherwise well is a freak.
Men are more defined by their work; this should be encouraged and not by bullying him to wash dishes/ load the washing machine. How much time does basic housework take anyway? My guess is 3 hours a day maximum with perhaps a morning once a week of 'deep' cleaning. And, frankly, who cares if the sitting room doesn't get vacuumed for a week?
You presume that all females fit into the 'maternal/nurturing' stereotype whilst all males fit into the 'provider/protector' stereotype. That simply isn't the case.
I am female. My partner is male. If we were to have a baby, I would like us to split maternity/paternity leave 50/50. I believe we would be about equal in terms of 'nurturing' a child. On top of that, I'd say I'm more work-driven than he is. Why should I have to stay at home and care for a baby whilst he goes out to work? IMO it simply wouldn't suit us.
All couples are different and their specific roles within their relationship or family (should they choose to have one) should, IMO, be determined by their individual personalities, not by their genitalia.
On a side note, I find your use of words like 'normal' and 'freak' very odd.
Original post by Red one
The woman needs to do some bonding with the baby mother-child bonding is very important at the early stage.
So dad doesn't need to be there to bond because the child won't remember because all it's doing is eating, pooing and sleeping. But mum needs to be there so that she can bond with the eating, pooing and sleeping child with no long-term memory because apparently she's magic...
Original post by Red one
It's not solely her job and I actually mentioned how they can take turns, taking time off at the same time is a big NO-NO imo. It's overdoing it and largely the workload is not the big. When the man comes back from work they can switch or the other way around, they can work it out for themselves every couple is different that much we can agree on.
It's exhausting only if you're not really used to doing a lot of work. Cleaning the house is not going to take you no more than 2 hours if the house is a mansion then you should be able to afford cleaners or maybe a nanny even.
I might be traditional by your standard but it's actually more practical and useful to society, a lot of men are being pressured or actually just taking the time off because they want time off work.
It's exhausting only if you're not really used to doing a lot of work. Cleaning the house is not going to take you no more than 2 hours if the house is a mansion then you should be able to afford cleaners or maybe a nanny even.
I might be traditional by your standard but it's actually more practical and useful to society, a lot of men are being pressured or actually just taking the time off because they want time off work.
OK, another point:
Say the Dad works a high pressure job in a high pressure career. He leaves the house at 8 in the morning, comes back home at 8 or 9 in the evening. The mum has been taking care of the kid for these hours. Then what? After a full day in the office the dad takes care of the kid for how long? Three hours? Four at most? Cos I bet, if he's gonna be getting to work in the morning, he needs to be rested. So say he takes care of the kid from about 8 or 9 PM to 12AM. His partner sleeps during those hours, and then wakes up to feed the baby at around 12AM, probably doesn't get a full night's sleep at all, because she has to be taking care of the kid through the night so the dad can get sleep and go to work the next day (or not? How would this work in your opinion? Does the mum get **** sleep until it's OK for the dad to take leave, or does the dad get **** sleep and go to work tired?). But that doesn't matter. What about the parents' relationship? When do they spend some time together?
I personally think that the way to go is to take turns, because as it happens that's what worked for my parents. My parents, however, were both lucky enough to have jobs that allowed them plenty of time together. In the example I have set out above, having both parents at home so that they can take turns taking care of the baby AND being with each other so that the bond between them stays strong and the family can stay together.
Plus, there's another thing. Even if I agreed with what you say, your proposal just means keeping mums at home. If we are one day to have an equal society where men and women share equal responsibilities, then this can't happen. Perpetuating the "men go to work, women stay at home and take care of the kids" idea only makes it so that less women will be in top positions in jobs. Children are both a man AND a woman's responsibility, and the taking care of them should be shared. Part of this is ensuring that men can take time off to take care of their children, especially if this frees up their partner to go back to work.
Original post by fire2burn
It's really not a difficult concept to understand.
It's just so sad that some people have lost their humanity over work really.
Original post by redferry
Never heard such a bunch of sexist codswallop in my life.
If the woman is the main breadwinner it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the woman has more opportunity for career progression it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the man wants to be the one to spend time with the kids when they are young it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the mans job has better parental leave conditions it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If both people in the couple are men the only option is for a man to take maternity leave.
Why anyone would be against this is so beyond me it is unreal
If the woman is the main breadwinner it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the woman has more opportunity for career progression it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the man wants to be the one to spend time with the kids when they are young it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If the mans job has better parental leave conditions it makes sense for the man to take paternity leave
If both people in the couple are men the only option is for a man to take maternity leave.
Why anyone would be against this is so beyond me it is unreal
Well, from the OP's angle, it's all about business isn't it? It's no longer how to be a normal, decent human being, doing what's right for themselves.
Awful.
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
Where did I say biological men? I said sex and gender does not always match up.
Are you really comparing choosing how to manage childcare to snorting coke? How ridiculous. Although personally I support the legalisation of drugs so that's not even a valid point
Because it's not your place to say. If someone asks for your opinion, sure, but if they don't shut up and get on with your own life.
Are you really comparing choosing how to manage childcare to snorting coke? How ridiculous. Although personally I support the legalisation of drugs so that's not even a valid point
Because it's not your place to say. If someone asks for your opinion, sure, but if they don't shut up and get on with your own life.
I was talking about biological men.
I don't even know where to begin. 1) legalising drugs is a bad idea as the only places that have legalised the hard stuff have had huge drug issues to begin with and still currently have more drugs than most places, but that's off topic and 2) considering how being a bad parent can easily end in someone dying, I think there's nothing absurd about the comparison. You made a statement but didn't follow it though with a reason as to why it's absurd...
Why is it not my place to say? I'm doing better in life than most people, so erm, I think it is!
If you can't deal with criticism, you won't be able to deal with life.Original post by yepyepyep
By your logic men would be the optimum fathers, why can't fathers take leave to spend time with their children?
Uwotm8? Optimum father, sure, but that role is to provide for the family...
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