The EU answer is here! Too perfect we get everything we want!

Clegg said the HoC's library said it was 7%. He lied. The HoC's library did not say it was 7%. Why did he fabricate a number? Why did he continue to argue it when he was proven wrong in debate 2?

In the UK data suggest that from 1997 to 2009 6.8% of primary legislation (Statutes) and 14.1% of secondary legislation (Statutory Instruments) had a role in implementing EU obligations

I've read the paper and I clearly interpret it very differently to you. As said before, its impossible to put an exact figure on it. Even seasoned economists cant. That alone should tell you something.

Fair enough and I do although I will admit that Farage does ply on the emotions of people because he's a great orator. However, I despise Clegg. In fact, I'd probably prefer Miliband in charge of the country and that should tell you something given my views of the current Labour Party. How I wish they were the Labour of old.



Farage wasn't scaremongering, he was right. The door is open and its proven that its open. He never once said they would all come here. He said they have a right to do so and that is true just as I have the right to up and move to Spain, Bulgaria or Germany tomorrow - I make myself known in the local area depending on what country I move too - I sign the paperwork and that is that. Im even entitled to benefits to support myself whilst job seeking.

Please don't pretend that 480m within the EU aren't able to move here because they are. If you leave your door open people have an ability to walk in. If you have a security guard you filter who comes in and out on set criteria. If the door is closed and locked people cant come in. I want the security guard filtering model as Canada adopts.

Farage was also right that EU membership does cost us £55m per day in gross figures.

Please read what you've just quoted, it does not support what you are saying. It does not say that 70% of our laws are made by Europe; it says that in 70% of cases the EU Parliament and EU Council have an equal say on law creation. This is not evidence that 70% of our laws are tied to Europe. I'm struggling to understand why you think it says that?

Again I apologise that I misheard what he said. However, Nigel was still wrong when he quoted the document and UKIPs estimate is false.

From litterally the second paragraph of the report

We are discussing figures. There is no interpreting to do.

When someone says 480m people are entitled to move here in a debate, you are entitled to say that not everyone else will. I cannot fathom why you are taking issue with that.

It's a misrepresentation. If I get £50's worth of shopping at Tesco using a £15 off voucher, then although I have £50's worth of stuff, I have only spent £35. You are holding Clegg and Farage to two completely different standards.

I DIDN'T SAY THAT 70% OF OUR LAWS ARE MADE BY THE EU. I SAID THEY ARE LINKED, REGULATED OR RELATED TO THE EU. THAT IS A FACT. LISTEN TO WHAT IS BEING SAID.

Here again I provide you with the quote:

Farage is much closer. 70% of our laws are in somewhat tied into the EU. How, is very vague because it depends on interpretation and how it is broken down.

The evidence supports that notion that they are tied. 70% of our laws the EU has a say on. Thats not MADE BY THE EU but a say on them. They could be made in ****ing Narnia or your local Greggs for all I care, it doesn't matter. They still have a say, as supported by fullfacts, seasoned economists, in 70% of laws. Do they have the sole say on all of them? No they don't. They shouldn't have any say on any of our laws regardless.

Yes it is false as I have said plenty of times. 75% was an overestimate.

Again, you are not understanding what Farage is saying. He's not saying they are made. Listen again to the video I posted further back. He states they are influenced. His figure was an overestimate but Clegg keeps saying 'made, made, made' because it allows him to quote smaller figures. Farage is arguing about influence and laws tied in. fullfacts, a site that has an abundance of economists puts the figure of influence at around 70% but that includes laws we have 'equal' say on with those in Brussels. Regardless, its still too much. I suspect the laws MADE by the EU are around the 15% mark.

Farage is arguing about influence and not made. Clegg doesn't understand this because hes an absolute moron.

In the UK data suggest that from 1997 to 2009 6.8% of primary legislation (Statutes) and 14.1% of secondary legislation (Statutory Instruments) had a role in implementing EU obligations, although the degree of involvement varied from passing reference to explicit implementation

I take issue with Clegg saying its scaremongering when its in fact a fact. Clegg says that Farage is saying 480m will move here. Clegg does not listen because he's a compulsive liar. Farage has said 480m are able to come here but Clegg can't accept thats the truth and thats what an open door policy brings us. In some ways its great as there are less restrictions but then there are negative aspects. The problem with Clegg is he doesn't appreciate that because he lives in a political class bubble.

No. I worked in business as a director for 2 years before going to university to change career paths. We deal with gross in some instances and net in others and turnover and so on depending on what we're actually on about. Yes Farage should talk about it all. However, its hardly shocking he's going with the higher gross figure is it. He worked in a sector where gross figures are thrown around for fun. Gross is also what are salaries are actually put across as and not net. Cant blame him for doing the same when it comes to the EU membership etc.

We did that once - we were in EFTA. We soon left because it was not as attractive as the EU.

EFTA membership is still possible and by extension membership of the European Economic Area (EEA), but that really amounts to nothing more than doing as the EU tells us but with zero input before it makes decisions - at least at the moment, we have considerable time and opportunity to debate and influence decisions as EU members).

If we ever became a member of NAFTA (which I doubt would ever occur, mind you), it would be the same experience, except this time we'd be alongside Canada and Mexico being dictated to by the US.

From the first page of the report, once again. You clearly have not read it.

Farage is no different to Clegg.

Go and read the first part of your last post again and tell me that you can't see how you're not being completely hypocritical and not applying two completley different standards to Farage and Clegg. You're literally singing Farage's praises for doing exactly the same thing that you're slating Clegg for.

In to the bit in bold I will for the final time tell you I did not say 'made'. That is rude and abrupt but you're not listening. On to the next point.

You do realise that if the EU has a say on it, there is a link right? The link is the say because if you give someone a say on something they have influence. It really is very basic logic. If I give you a say in where we go for lunch you have influence in where we go. You may not have made the option in question but you still have influence over it. The option could have even been made or created by a third party and none of us.

Again, I quote:

How is there not a link?

In 70% of cases they have an equal say on. By its very nature, thats a link. The only way for there not to be a link would for us to have 100% say.

Do you think its fine that 70% of laws the EU have an equal say on?

No I did read it and again, the British government by its own estimations even states that roughly 50% of our laws are linked to the EU. Not made, linked. I accept that as my source thanks.

No I am not. I admitted Farage's estimates were wrong. So were Clegg's. They were both wrong on estimates. Im singing Farage's praises because he openly admitted in the first debate his were estimates. Im slating Clegg because he continued to lie even in the second debate when the facts were put to him.

When Clegg was told that why didn't he, as a pro EU politician, still argue its case? Instead he resorted to lying and using the 'made' argument rather than the 'linked/influence' argument Farage put forward.

I am not singing Farage's praises on his figures. He was wrong, as was Clegg. The difference is when Farage was asked where the figures were from he said it was an estimate. When Clegg was asked he said it was in the HoC's library which later proved to be untrue as Farage proved in debate 2 and has been proven wrong on the internet even by the BBC.

Yes, you seem incapable of understanding the difference between made and linked. A law does not have to be made by the EU to be linked. As already pointed out, if someone has a say/influence then logically there is a link. The link being that degree of influence.

I've also reported you for trolling with memes when trying to have an actual debate with another poster. Take your nonsense to chat if you wish to do such.

This is not in the report. Saying it over and over again will not make it true, not matter how hard you close your eyes and wish. Go and read the quote I posted from the report, it is clearly referring to laws linked to the EU as well, it says it in black and white.

Clegg presented the lowest figure to support his argument with regards to the EU law to strengthen his argument. Farage presented the highest possible figure with regards to membership cost to strengthen his argument. One is satan, the other is the angel Gabriel.

You're confusing the laws proposed by the European Commission (in other words, EU Laws: the ones that the European Council and the European Parliament may approve or veto) with any laws made within Europe (by either the EU itself or by national governments).

The percentage of EU laws that the European Parliament and European Council had an equal say on does not influence the number of EU laws overall (and, thus, the percentage of our own laws that are tied/regulated/relavent to the EU).

For instance, say the European Commission proposed 10 EU Laws and that 7 of them were approved by the European Parliament and the European Council equally (so in 70% of cases as FullFact says). These 10 EU laws would be writen into our own ''book of rules''. Does this mean that 70% of our laws are tied/related/regulated by the EU (as you have stated)? No.

This is to both of you.

Why should they have any say at all on any of our laws? Why should we adhere to any laws we have not got 100% say in?

This is irrelavent.

Do you accept, now, that 70% of our laws are not tied/regulated/relavent to the EU, that Nigel Farage was wrong when he quoted the HoCL document and that UKIPs 75% estimate is false?

(These are the questions i've been asking since the beginning of our discussion).

I disagree with you. You won't change my views no matter how much you go on about it.

No. Clegg lied. The HoC's didn't agree with him.

This is to both of you.

Why should they have any say at all on any of our laws? Why should we adhere to any laws we have not got 100% say in?

We contacted Ms Reding’s press office to find out what source she was basing this on. In fact, the percentage was actually referring to something entirely different – where the European Parliament (consisting of elected representatives for each EU country) has an equal say to the European Council (made up of the governments of all EU countries) on EU laws, not UK laws.

EU laws, not UK laws.


EU laws, not UK laws.


EU laws, not UK laws.


EU laws, not UK laws.


EU laws, not UK laws.


EU laws, not UK laws.

I'm not trying to change your views. I'm trying to stop you lying. What you say appears in the report appears no where in the report.

I've quoted you the actual report, numerous times. Your position is completely untenable on every level. You're on the same level as someone trying to argue that the sun is blue and Germany is in South America.

So do you admit that you didn't even read past the headline of your own article?

Im not lying. Those EU laws still influence us do they not?

No I read the headline thanks. Do those EU laws influence us? Yes they do.

No its not irrelevant. Answer the question.

I stated that its around roughly the 50% mark earlier on in this very thread. Roughly 50% is closer to Farage's figure is it not?

I view it as irrelavent as the questions i've been asking concern the actual numbers you've been using and not what can be said about them (if that makes sense...?).

Although if you want an answer: I don't know. I have not thought about it.

So do you accept, now, that 70% of our laws are not tied/relavent/regulated by the EU?