Feminism - The Official Debate!

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That one is very silly... :tongue:

However, please take note of the more serious ones. I think you'll really learn something from it. If you're unclear about why the experience was sexist just ask, as sometimes it's not always clear to those who haven't experienced it. I'm really sorry if that is patronising but I really want to show it to you because it's something I really care about.

Trust me, if their complain is legitimate I won't need it explained, looked at a few out of interest, you can tell some are so exaggerated but some of the more realistic ones are fair enough, though this kind of disturbs me...

"When one of the main characters, a woman in a relationship, starts yelling and throwing things at her boyfriend because she thinks she's not pretty enough for him, and that he finds other women more attractive over her. She's insecure about how she looks, how she talks, and how she acts. She simple doesn't feel pretty enough to be loved.

I was touched by those scenes because I could relate to them, either by own experience or because I know people in any of the two situations.

And that's how we live our lives day by day."

....I actually thought she was going to do the opposite and say how it was sexist that its often displayed as okay for women to abuse their partner in the media, tv, etx, especially due to their own issues, but nope..apparently it's fine and it's touching as she and folks she knows relate to it.

Reply 61

tengentoppa

Original post by instrumentality

I feel like crying. This is the scariest thing I have read today.
You are claiming that rape, sexual harassment and abuse is just????? illusion???? they??do not exist??
. .. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh my god

Are you thick? At one point did I say that? Rape, sexual harassment and abuse are unjust but they are the acts of twisted individuals. To divert attention away from the rapists and to blame society as a whole is sickening.

Reply 62

ManifoldManifest

Original post by gman10

. Remember a light hearted JOKE which I am sure no man will pipe up about

Gonna have to prove you wrong there. Any joke where the punchline is basically "haha, gender stereotypes!" is at best just not a very good joke.

Also, there's an interesting notion amongst comedians about "punching up" vs "punching down". In essence, good comedy targets power, bad comedy targets those in more vulnerable positions. No one can really argue that men are a vulnerable class, hence jokes about them don't have the same sting as jokes about less privileged groups.

(Which, to be clear, I am not advocating jokes about men. I'm saying gender jokes in general are rubbish, but there's a reason why the jokes are not entirely comparable. )

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 63

Comus

Original post by ManifoldManifest

Gonna have to prove you wrong there. Any joke where the punchline is basically "haha, gender stereotypes!" is at best just not a very good joke.

Also, there's an interesting notion amongst comedians about "punching up" vs "punching down". In essence, good comedy targets power, mad comedy targets those in more vulnerable positions. No one can really argue that men are a vulnerable class, hence jokes about them don't have the same sting as jokes about less privileged groups.

(Which, to be clear, I am not advocating jokes about men. I'm saying gender jokes in general are rubbish, but there's a reason why the jokes are not entirely comparable. )

My understanding had always been that one doesn't laugh at the joke per se but rather at the one telling it because the attitudes expressed are clearly anachronistic, outdated etc.

Reply 64

Lisah:)

I think the reason feminism has become such a taboo word which triggers bad stereotypes is because the whole point of feminism has changed. It used to have a clear message- Pure gender equality, it wasn't started just for women but for both genders to feel completely equal, to have all stereotypes removed from everyday life and society.
However nowadays, feminism has a become stigmatized into 'Nazi feminists' who hate all men and blame every piece of inequality they're ever faced on men or the media (which is seen as male dominant.) This is why men (not all but some) avoid feminists and don't take their messages seriously anymore, the whole campaign has, unfortunately, turned into an unequal men-bashing charade. Completely pointless.
I think what needs to be done is to educate people on what feminism really is instead of what it's become.

Reply 65

username521617

Original post by instrumentality

I feel like crying. This is the scariest thing I have read today.
You are claiming that rape, sexual harassment and abuse is just????? illusion???? they??do not exist??
. .. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh my god

A 'rape culture' would be a culture that perpetuates rape as some sort of acceptable norm. Western culture (at least) certainly does not. Rape is a serious criminal offence, is treated as a serious criminal offence, and society is usually very hostile to rapists. It is illegal to encourage rape (and joking about it will often land you in trouble), and all aspects of rape and sexual assault are largely frowned upon by society. Because rape still happens does not make us a 'rape culture'. This is almost insulting. By your logic, we also live in a murder and theft culture. More people are victims of theft than rape, people joke about theft acceptably, theft is depicted and even glamorised in all walks of fiction, and theft usually incurs softer punishments, but I have never heard the term 'theft culture' coined by anyone. Why? Because it's ridiculous. The term 'rape culture' was coined by feminists in another attempt to boost their victim egos, make a political statement, and whine about something else society does that feminists have again exaggerated and put on a pedestal.

So don't cry. No one is saying rape doesn't exist; just rape 'culture'.

And to your last response, men can and do experience sexism. How naive are you? Sexism is the prejudice towards or ill treatment of a sex; not just females. Males are a sex. Just because sexism towards males is overlooked, trivialised and even laughed at, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Reply 66

OrlaCarmel

Original post by ManifoldManifest

Gonna have to prove you wrong there. Any joke where the punchline is basically "haha, gender stereotypes!" is at best just not a very good joke.

Also, there's an interesting notion amongst comedians about "punching up" vs "punching down". In essence, good comedy targets power, mad comedy targets those in more vulnerable positions. No one can really argue that men are a vulnerable class, hence jokes about them don't have the same sting as jokes about less privileged groups.

(Which, to be clear, I am not advocating jokes about men. I'm saying gender jokes in general are rubbish, but there's a reason why the jokes are not entirely comparable. )

Thank you for your addition to my point, its nice that someone else gets where I'm coming from. I just dont see it as acceptable and reinforces stereotypes.

The only really funny thing about those jokes on this thread was that a male thought it was acceptable even though they are rarely the subject of the jokes....

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 67

gman10

Original post by OrlaCarmel

lol

Reply 68

ManifoldManifest

Original post by Dandaman1

So don't cry. No one is saying rape doesn't exist; just rape 'culture'.

Examples of what is more generally meant by the term "rape culture": the astonishingly light sentences of the Steubenville rapists. Or Glenn Ridge, or Torrington High, or Savanna Dietrich. Or any other of the similar high profiles cases that combined the features of light punishment for the boys involved and a dragging through the mud of the victim's character.

Those things did happen, those attitudes do exist.

Reply 69

RandZul'Zorander

Original post by ChickenMadness

fuaaaaaaaaaaarck. You're condoning a father having his child taken away from him BY Fuaaarcking death. Fuaaaaaaaaaaaarcking hell and you're a male yourself. Stopped reading right there.

Fuarck
/thread.

Insane. Can't argue with that. Absolutely disgusting views you have.

What a wonderful, well thought out response you made here. Such an excellent contribution to intellectualism. :teehee:

Reply 70

ClickItBack

Original post by OrlaCarmel

Out of curiosity, are you by any chance heterosexual, white and male?

I'm not white and I find most racist jokes hilarious, especially if they're directed against my race. A lot of comedians make a living off that kind of material so I'm not alone either.

The ability to laugh at yourself is something that extremists of any type lack.

Reply 71

Smushy

Original post by OrlaCarmel

Not sure whether to laugh or cry over the views of people on TSR. Apparently sexist jokes aren't offensive, rape culture doesn't exist and men face more sexism than women.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 'rape culture'. Our western culture does not in any way condone rape any more than it condones murder. I think we, as feminists, would do better to raise awareness for female sexual abuse. We need to break the taboo that surrounds female paedophilia, domestic violence and sexual abuse. The sexist notion that women don't rape, abuse their partners and children needs to be dispelled. We need to show that gender roles are not all encompassing. We are not always victims. We have fought for our rights, and now we need to accept the duties that come with them to truly deserve them. (yes I am aware human rights are inalienable and that the word 'deserve' is not wholly applicable, but our rights system does not work if we do not observe our duties.)

Sexist jokes are in bad taste, and you can just not laugh when anyone tells you one, but going all over the top and telling them to be quiet is just going to build resentment. Being offended will not fight sexism and heteronormativity in society, we need to stay pragmatic. We need to avoid emotional shouting matches, they will not benefit our movement. The fundaments of feminism are rational, and the movement has had and can continues to have fantastic effects on society. Indeed, the kind of egalitarianism that true feminism encourages (with a focus on female issues-because egalitarianism is a wide movement and different groups address different facets of it) is desirable for society. It will afford individuals a greater personal freedom to do the things that will make them happy, it will empower them to fight for their own happiness and it will allow us to effectively utilise the talent that lies within our population, which will all lead to a society where more people have the opportunity to be happy. And yes, I encourage the creation of a movement that fights for men's rights. We need to address the gender roles from men's perspectives. We need to understand why there are so many men in prison, and whether this is due to judicial inequality. This is not a war of the sexes, it is a war of people against gender roles and oppression from two different perspectives.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 72

Chicken.M.

Original post by RandZul'Zorander

What a wonderful, well thought out response you made here. Such an excellent contribution to intellectualism. :teehee:

At the end of the day you can't really argue.

I believe a father should be able allowed to keep his child alive, and he doesn't. What else is there to say? It's just a difference in beliefs.

I also don't really condone abortions unless its due to rape or the mother's life is in danger. Since if you're just having normal consensual sex you know what the risks are. And after 3 weeks the feotus starts to develop a spinal cord / brain / central nervous system and can feel pain at this point. So it's inhumane to be killing it at past that point imo

Reply 73

Comus

Original post by ChickenMadness

fuaaaaaaaaaaarck. You're condoning a father having his child taken away from him BY Fuaaarcking death.

A foetus isn't a person.

Reply 74

instrumentality

The most ironical and hilarious thing about this thread is that the heterosexual white males are trying to define and embody the feminism for women.

It's phenomenal.

And ignorant to the bone.

Reply 75

username521617

Original post by ManifoldManifest

And these are a minority (and often region specific). There's a reason why they become high profile; this stuff gets out, and the public condemn it in a widespread, thorough manner. In the majority of cases, if there is evidence of a rape occurring, the defendant is found guilty a stiff sentence is normally issued. People get away with easy sentences now and again as with any other crime. Rape is not unique here; it's a general problem with corruption in the justice system (particularly in the U.S.)

I stand by my argument that we live in a 'rape culture' no more than we do in a culture of any other criminal activity.

Reply 76

OrlaCarmel

Original post by ClickItBack

Did you just call me an extremist for not being able to laugh at a joke that mocked my beliefs.... O.o

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 77

Chicken.M.

Original post by RandZul'Zorander

You do realize that there are limits on when a woman can get an abortion right? And without getting into a whole abortion debate, your 'son' is not a citizen of any country. We aren't even sure that you 'son' is a person at the point where we are talking about abortion. Really you seem to be referring to a ball of cells, that you are claiming are 'yours' even though they are within the woman's body....really quite a ridiculous claim you're making there.

Abortions are legal up to 24 weeks. The earliest premature birth has been at 21 weeks. I do find it a bit crazy how some people can be so black and white as to say while the baby is inside the womb its not a person. But as soon as it comes out its a person now.

The only point you could seriously consider it a ball of cells is before 2 weeks. After that point they have a brain / spinal cord / central nervous system. And they just become more complex by the day after that with organs and limbs being formed etc.

Also how does not being a citizen of a country have anything to do with it. There are indigenous tribes in Brazil that aren't a citizen of any country since the government there denies they exist. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered human.

I don't know how you would feel if your partner just decided to get an abortion at 24 weeks for whatever reason without asking you. But I would be extremely upset.

Not posting in this thread anymore. Makes me sick tbh.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 78

OrlaCarmel

Original post by instrumentality

The most ironical and hilarious thing about this thread is that the heterosexual white males are trying to define and embody the feminism for women.

It's phenomenal.

And ignorant to the bone.