Did Nigel Farage win your vote?

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Yes but if you close the doors on immigration then it would only be fair for other countries to do the same and so we would have more people here, albeit born British individuals.
Obviously I am aware we would still be able migrate however I am merely pointing out that we don't have as many immigrants as the scare mongering would have you believe.

Say what you want about net migration and emigration/immigration patterns, the nation is undergoing population increase- Fact. We will surpass 70 million in the coming decades and eventually 80 million. When so we stop in your opinion. Yes the morals and ethics rubbish have to be considered but do they matter when we have little or no development space left, no hospitality places for the ill population, no educational places for kids.

Over 70% of our land usage In the UK is Agriculture which we can't sacrifice as we would kind of face a food shortage. Add the land you can't build on say 5%, the greenbelt land, 15% and the current urban areas it leaves little or no area for expansion. Yes you can build on greenbelt but then we face investigation via your beloved EU who set strict climate change regulations.

we are small and the mathematics supports an end or significant control of immigration. The obsessive moral high ground the left adopt is respective, admirable and definitely required in some circumstances but when it comes to valuing human rights and freedom over basic maths, demographics and logic which they do on a daily basis it leads to disaster.

Immigration did benefit this country, now it's time to consider its impact now which in simple terms has failed

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 81

MASTER265

Original post by crayz

They don't really care about the economy, if they did they would just have indefinite investment in infrastructure to provide full employment.

I think they do but sadly these day to maximise the votes for your party you need to reach out to the large proportion of the population who only care about how you will increase their wages, reduce their bills, get them a house, get them cheap food, get then free this free that, makes their transportation easier, makes their lives as easy as possible practically. No doubt the nation believes your born entitled rather than earning it

Reply 82

crayz

Original post by MASTER265

If we give people jobs we can give them a chance to earn it. I think it is pure economic stupidity to simply allow our unemployed to be forced into dumb arse jobs and volunteering or to simply sit idle. If we want them to contribute to our economy then we need to create real jobs that provide real services that we need. We must heavily invest in infrastructure in order to create jobs. For only £20 billion a year we can create 1 million new £20k per year jobs. We currently have 1.17 million people on job seekers i find it hilarious that we spent 100s of billion bailing banks out yet we can't spare 20 billion to end unemployment.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 83

Georgie_M

Original post by MASTER265

Although I disagree with many of your statements in this post I do believe we should have a cap on immigration but I think a ban is ridiculous and would not benefit us economically. The EU is not beloved to me, as I stated in a previous post I do not know enough about it to make an informed decision. And I found neither Farage or clegg particularly persuasive in the debate.

Reply 84

crayz

Original post by Georgie_M

You don't know enough about the EU to make a decision on that, so why do you assume to know enough about economics to make a decision on the economic impacts of immigration?

Reply 85

MASTER265

Original post by crayz

If we give people jobs we can give them a chance to earn it.

Labour took a similar approach via welfare reforms. It's backfired and welfare is the single highest tax funded area of the state and that's minus pensions. Recent government reports showed the lowest taxpayer investment went to business, finance and infrastructure. The population is too interested in their social entitlements and well being. No doubt the slowest form and least efficient method of economic recovery and development is one in conjunction with complete social stability, national focus on energy, transport and fuel bills, and benefit subsidies. We can't accept a little sacrifice so our economic growth will always be the slowest, insufficient and un predictable formality.

Reply 86

crayz

Original post by MASTER265

If we create the jobs then we eliminate welfare over night. In power I would create enough jobs to satisfy our need for jobs and end welfare.

Reply 87

MASTER265

Original post by Georgie_M

Many of the statistics are government based or national based so neither of us can really disregard them.

I accept you may disagree with my follow up opinions but I am just applying my logic to the statistics in all honesty. If it says we will reach say 75 million, surely logic says our current and any future health system would suffer even more. I don't know that's my outlook on it.

I also disagree with a ban on immigration( I meant more along the lines of a short term ban so we can quickly get back on our feet then let people back in). Most of my friends are immigrants and economically It did benefit and has benefited the country. UKIP suggest controlled immigration which I am fan off, it ignores race, religion or ethnic differences and considers what the immigrant could bring to the country. Simply would you want someone coming over who aims to work in our NHS or someone who just wants to live here for the free healthcare and benefit system?

I honestly thought Farage was the more persuasive of the debate and 90% of those surveyed thought the same so I am bit surprised but oh well. I actually think Nick Clegg is the most sincere of them all and as a person i respect but he lack spine, in the world politics we don't want people like him fighting our corner. Farage is rude, egotistical and a funny man but hey I'd chose him as a representative over any of the pansy leaders

Reply 88

MASTER265

Original post by crayz

If we create the jobs then we eliminate welfare over night. In power I would create enough jobs to satisfy our need for jobs and end welfare.

Do you believe in direct investment into industry and a capped or reduction in the welfare, health, pensions bills ect. If you do I agree with you.

Reply 89

Georgie_M

Original post by crayz

You don't know enough about the EU to make a decision on that, so why do you assume to know enough about economics to make a decision on the economic impacts of immigration?

Just because I admit that I do not know enough about one subject does not mean I can not be part of the discussion on other topics. I am not an economist neither are most of the individuals on TSR but I am allowed an opinion as are you and I highly doubt you are a respected academic in this field.

Reply 90

crayz

Original post by MASTER265

Do you believe in direct investment into industry and a capped of reduction in the welfare, health, pensions bills ect. If you do I agree with you.

I believe in the government creating these jobs through infrastructure investment like building more houses, building better internet infrastructure and building better transport links. The minimum wage should be raised to a 'living wage' simply to end government subsidies to low earners. With full employment and a higher minimum wage welfare can then effectively be scrapped.

As for pensions and health etc yes we should find ways to reduce these. Education costs can be reduced by moving to a more virtual system. Secondary school should essentially be ended by moving it to the online world. Universities should stop offering courses that are simply unnecessary for our economy to thrive. Healthcare and pensions are a bit more limited as there are only so many unnecessary components to remove.

Reply 91

Dnator

Only an idiot would change their vote on the back of a televised debate. I honestly doubt many people cared about the EU until it became a scapegoat.

Reply 92

crayz

Original post by Georgie_M

There is no such thing as an opinion in economics there are facts and there are lies.

Reply 93

serebro

Original post by Tom_Anderson

1) Immigrants arrive here to find work.
2) Our people are competing with those who will live 10 to a house, and can survive on a lot less money thus depressing wages.
3) Our people end up on the dole, no work experience.
4) Those that do work have to pay greater taxes to support more on the dole.
5) The money paid to the immigrants its not even spent in our country hurting our economy even more.
6) Areas of the country become ghettos and no go areas, with some immigrants living in sheds.
7) Some immigrants claim benefits, for instance child benefit for children that do not even live in our country.

The people who's lives will most likely be destroyed by this? Young people, students.

I'm sure most of you are students because you wish to increase your earning potential in later life. Uncontrolled immigration will destroy this hope, if it hasn't already.

That is the horror story that UKIP are trying to paint for the UK, which is rather wild and unlikely.

The work ethic of the vast majority of immigrants is the polar opposite of British people. Quite a few British people would rather claim benefits than work as in low-wage jobs, not necessarily because they're lazy, as it could be for family reasons or health.

Today's people tend to expect a well-paid job for only a moderate amount of work, when in reality you have to work your way up from the bottom in today's economy. Just take a look at the post-war generation, we had mass immigration to the UK, yet it worked out for the better.

Uncontrolled immigration obviously never works, but the UK does actually control immigration, so this scenario will never happen unless there's an anarchy.

Like I explained with Polish development, students may find a lot of opportunities to work for British businesses selling to developing European nations, especially in positions such as marketing and finance. They also get the opportunity to travel to mainland Europe for free tuition at lower living costs with no visa worries. So they're certainly no worse off from the arrival of immigrants here.

Reply 94

MASTER265

Original post by crayz

Raising the minimum wage could equally be disastrous. How do you tell a small business who can not afford to pay higher wages to suddenly pay higher wages. There is a reason economies flourish upon privatisation( look at china), that's because business transactions and policies should be regulated and introduced by businessman. Politicians in the state should not tell a business how to run it's business, when they themselves are not related to the industry. A business should pay higher wages if it can economically and financially. To tell a business what to do is the wrong move and especially for the small businesses could destroy them

Reply 95

crayz

Original post by MASTER265

How do you tell a small business who can not afford to pay higher wages to suddenly pay higher wages.

There is a reason economies flourish upon privatisation( look at china), that's because business transactions and policies should be regulated and introduced by businessman. Politicians in the state should not tell a business how to run it's business, when they themselves are not related to the industry. A business should pay higher wages if it can economically and financially. To tell a business what to do is the wrong move and especially for the small businesses could destroy them

By saying that if they don't they will be sent to jail. If their business fails then a new one will take its place as consumer needs do not simply disappear. A foreign goods sales tax could be implemented in order to allow for British goods to compete with lower cost imports.

The government isn't telling them how to run their business it is simply stating that these are the rules in which businesses must operate.

Reply 96

Welsh Bluebird

Original post by crayz

Pretty much this. The modern left have been duped into supporting the EU.

Spot on. The worrying thing is, that those duped are being duped by politicians who only have their own interests at heart. Clegg wanted a referendum not so long ago but now he's deputy PM and things are all rosy he doesn't because he knows it will upset the status quo and put his life of luxury at risk.

Original post by Genocidal

Was never voting for him before and I'm not voting for him now. He's essentially BNP lite.

Laughable. A look at the political spectrum tells most that the current Labour Party are in fact closer to the BNP and their ways. The fact a lot of Labour supporters put out this BNP lite tripe makes me laugh because their party is again, as stated, closer on the political spectrum to the BNP. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The problem with these fools is that they still believe Labour stands for the working class when in reality it doesn't. If it did, it'd get my vote, but I know it no longer does and it has about as much chance of getting my vote as I have of banging Shakira.

Original post by Flauta

No, he acted condescending and rude throughout the whole thing and I didn't agree with anything that he said.

Thats kind of the attitude logical and rational people take when trying to resonate with idiots like Nick Clegg who live in a dream world picturing a utopian Europe.

Original post by I am not finite

He's had a lot of practice in the EU parliament, he's also up against Clegg who for someone defending the European Cause seems to know very little about it...

.....and that seems to be the case with most pro EU supporters. I put a thread out yesterday asking about the EU politicians who are unelected. Nothing of any credence was given in reply because the vast majority of EU supporters actually haven't a single clue what it is, what it stands for, who is part of its make up and so on. The vast majority weren't even aware of an EU battle group until after the debate which just goes to show how little people no.

A lot of people don't want to be seen as saying NO to Europe because they don't want to be labelled racists by the loony left who only like freedom of speech when it suits them. The problem is, these idiots cant seem to comprehend that a controlled immigration policy doesn't make you a racist, it just means you want control of your borders and want quality over quantity. That's not racist. Its just logical.

Original post by I am not finite

The main problem with UKIP is their cult of personality, I don't agree with many of Farage's social views but you just know there's some nasty bastards in UKIP working their way up the ladder.

Most of UKIP will be infiltrated with old hat Tory boys disillusioned with the current Conservative Party if they ever get anywhere and those idiots within UKIP will be forced out. They won't jump **** however until UKIP actually achieve something a lot more credible.

Original post by james1211

No, he's an illusionist, he's a big player in the city and has rich mates there = corruption.

No he's not. He's an ex trader with years of experience in the real world and he understands the fundamental importance of the customer. Giving the working class more disposable income helps aid spending which increases turnover for the rich who own big businesses. He will then allow them to increase profit margins by removing red tape, cutting EU related nonsense out and removing idiotic environmental regulations businesses in our country have to comply with but businesses in emerging global economies don't.

Original post by RFowler

At one point I thought I would vote UKIP but I'm not sure I trust them on some environment issues, given that they are climate change deniers and have complained about emission regulations and wildlife protection measures like the habitats directive.

Original post by Infraspecies

No, he did not.
He's a global warming denier who things pulling out of Europe solves all of the UK's problems.
i.e. Moron.

No. He actually thinks its not a massive issue and i'm inclined to agree. We have people living in poverty and other issues. Until we get countries like China on board all efforts are a waste of time. If it was, why aren't China or the USA taking it seriously? Why aren't other massive countries taking it seriously? You do realise, according to experts, that unless emissions drop to a certain point the damage will continue anyway don't you?

That alone tells us that we as a global unit need to tackle climate change and only a few countries tackling it is doing it in vain. We are doing it in vain because we're not actually helping. The damage is still being done because countries like China do not give a crap about it and until they give a crap the situation will only get worse.

Now, the reality is, we have no influence over China and they won't listen to us. They will do as they bloody well please. Its at that point you need to really weigh up where to go from there. You have mass unemployment, people in poverty, businesses outsourcing to Asia because of red tape issues within the EU and small businesses being fined and penalised for not complying with quite frankly, dumbing down H&S bull****.

We have all of that but people still bang on about the environment and so on when a lot of countries, including important ones like China, just don't care. Should we care? Yes, we should, but only on a political bargaining level. We shouldn't enforce any legislation or regulations until its a globally accepted movement. Otherwise, as already pointed out, its done in vain, as the damage continues. Its not hard to see why big companies are outsourcing to countries in Asia where there's far less red tape. I'd take my business out there too in the current economic climate because all the **** businesses face within the UK and all the regulations they must comply with are a disgrace and absurd and let us not forget, these businesses provide jobs and help the average person earn a wage to put food on the table for not only themselves but often their family.

That is a far more serious issue. Also, there's no actual proof climate change is purely man made either as some claim. Many top scientists dispute such a thing. Do I believe climate change exists? Yes, but I think its an entirely natural cycle and a cycle the Earth goes through over many years to ensure it stays a habitable place for multiple living species. People's opinions on such vary widely and its not been proven whether its entirely natural or man made at all. A lot of top scientists say it is, a lot say it isn't. There's no conclusive evidence either way and its entirely down to what research you as an individual believe so to belittle someone else over such just for holding a different viewpoint is nothing short of outrageous.

I know you're going to try and rebuff this by pointing to study after study from scientist after scientist to try and reenforce your point. I've been on TSR long enough to know how the game works. I can do just the same to support the argument thats its entirely natural. I've read plenty of the studies myself as a lot of my computer related work ties into Geography as its an area i'm interested in.

Original post by James222

He is not a big player, i doubt he has assets over a million.
The EU is the most corrupt institution in the developed world

Agreed. He is common sense man which is why so many in politics cant resonate with him. Logical reasoning and politics don't mix.

Original post by James222

he is not a banker he was a Trader. What ties to the City ? you really think farage is some big fish in the City ??? he would be a nobody if he wasnt leading UKIP. Personal Wealth is 100% a measure of influence and power in the City.

He does have a lot of ties to the city through influence but he's also pretty down to Earth and it shows through his often crass nature and satirical wit. You can tell he's been influenced by the political nonsense too but those who take serious interest will see that he's pretty much a normal bloke pissed off at the establishment playing the game and to be quite honest, unless you play the political game the way it is meant to be played, you will lose.

Nick Griffin tried the 'i'm a British bloke for the British people' malarkey but refused to play the political game. He lost. Unless you're willing to dive into the political drama and force yourself to be heard that way, you don't stand much chance. However, thats given some idiots a platform to belittle him and claim he's just another politician. He isn't. He got into politics as a reaction to the ignorant establishment that has ignored the normal working class person in Britain for many years.

Its no different to how and many others have felt for years. The 3 main parties brought it on themselves by not listening. UKIP has evolved due to their own ignorance of the normal working class person, of whom have had to face stagnation and minor increases in wages, increased employment competition which makes finding employment difficult and prices of food etc. going up at a faster rate. Hardly surprising that the average Joe is quite annoyed.

Which power will corrupt him ? political ? and it wont other politicians.

None.

EU has massive salaries and budgets for it staff, regularly fails audits, uses taxpayers money to promote itself in the British Media, Toppled govt in Italy and Greece. Funds some very orwellian big brother programmes

EU salaries are higher than Cameron's. A lot of money is wasted by the EU and ends up in the hands of the corrupt but lets not worry about that.....at least we're using energy saving light bulbs. Go us!!

:awesome:

Original post by ChampEon

He doesn't have the faintest clue about economics or politics. Just a sensationalist moron with a large following of brainless chavs.

So no, he hasn't got my vote.

He has a lot more of a clue about economics and business (more important than politics) than the others, thats for sure. I don't want a politically trained fool in charge of this country. I want someone who understands that if you give more disposable income to those at the bottom and cut regs on businesses, you will bring about more spending, increased turnover and profit increases. Clegg obviously doesn't have a clue about business at all. If he did he would understand that the EU's restrictions on us setting up our own FTA's without their say so actually damages us. Its akin to only visiting one cash and carry to supply your shop with items rather than visiting an array of cash and carry's and taking advantage of a larger market and the competitive prices.

Clegg only wants to stay in the EU because it currently suits his agenda. It was only around 5-6 years ago he himself was calling for a referendum. Now he's firmly in Cameron's back pocket, he's quite happy to stay there and collect his money and for us to not get a say. The guy is arguably the politician I hate most in the country because at least with Miliband you know you're getting a hapless and harmless buffoon and with Cameron you're getting a Tory boy who acts a bit of a lad and lives it up but Clegg on a political level just cuddles up to whoever's argument suits his and is a constant fence jumper on many issues. I just cant take the bloke seriously.

Reply 97

Welsh Bluebird

Original post by serebro

That is the horror story that UKIP are trying to paint for the UK, which is rather wild and unlikely.

No its not. High competition for jobs in the UK is forcing people onto benefits or to move across Europe to countries where there are more job opportunities. Why should people be forced away from home, away from their families and loved ones, just to find work?

The work ethic of the vast majority of immigrants is the polar opposite of British people. Quite a few British people would rather claim benefits than work as in low-wage jobs, not necessarily because they're lazy, as it could be for family reasons or health.

True, but as a UKIP voter I support controlled immigration bringing skilled immigrants required for supply and demand reasons just as is the case with Canada. Nothing wrong with a skilled VISA permit for those wishing to work and live in the UK. What's the issue? An open door just leads to overpopulation of the jobs market, increased competition and wage stagnation because employers can take the piss. When this happens and inflation on the likes of food goes up, people struggle and are spending less which in itself damages the economy. Politicians love to drive home the statement 'spend, spend, spend' well when you hit their small businesses with fines, force them to train people every 6 months just for a bloody certificate and drive up costs then they have less disposable income and are less likely to do so.

I wouldn't even start a business in the UK in the current economic climate. As it stands, I'm saving up and moving to Asia to invest. I am not going to stay in this country, offer people skilled jobs and then face H&S crap and red tape for the privilege. Please tell me why I should put up with such ****?

Today's people tend to expect a well-paid job for only a moderate amount of work, when in reality you have to work your way up from the bottom in today's economy. Just take a look at the post-war generation, we had mass immigration to the UK, yet it worked out for the better.

True in a lot of cases. That is part of the expectancy culture of Britain and these types often use the 'lack of jobs' argument to defend their laziness. It still doesn't remove the issues we actually face in the UK.

Also, comparing post war Britain to current Britain is nothing short of insane. We had a massive skills shortage due to the many lives lost and we had to rebuild all the infrastructure. We are now in a situation whereby we can afford to pick and choose the best for this country and take on a supply and demand system. If someone is from France and has the required skills and there are no Brits for the job, fine, give them a skilled immigrants work permit as is the case in Canada. If they don't have skills and anything to offer this country, why do we want them and what purpose do they serve us other than adding to a country that already needs to build more houses, restructure and build new transport systems to cope with the load and possibly increase criminal activity? An open door policy is ludicrous and as already said in another thread to someone else, you wouldn't accept one for your house so why should we for our country on a larger scale? You can still trade with neighbouring countries just as you can with neighbours in your street. You don't need to grant them rights to just walk in.

Uncontrolled immigration obviously never works, but the UK does actually control immigration, so this scenario will never happen unless there's an anarchy.

No it doesn't. My mother works for border control and we are an open country to EU citizens. We have an open door policy to EU citizens and they are able to move here freely. They won't all move, thats an idiotic suggestion, but they are able to do so without issue. I can just as easily move to Germany tomorrow by booking a cheap flight and registering with the local authority. How do I know? I did it at 17 years of age.

Reply 98

James222

Domt vote ukip
Bnp in suits. Farage is normal but rest of party is nuts

Reply 99

Georgie_M

Original post by crayz

There is no such thing as an opinion in economics there are facts and there are lies.

Well actually there are economic theories which support both sides, one May be right one may be wrong but this is the same as any discipline, to a lesser or greater degree. as previously stated we are not academic theorists we are students who are looking at theories in order to form an opinion.