American Foreign Policy

Your existence would be such that you would be so different as to be unrecognisable today. Persecution of the Jews was only one aspect of fascist tyranny by the way. WWII would have been worth it even if there had been no holocaust.

Perhaps, but I would still exist. You made quite a sweeping statement. Besides, how do you know the nazi rule wouldn't have collapsed by itself? How do you know Europe couldn't have sorted itself out in the long run?

China was a tyranny, and it's slowing climbing out from under it. It might never be like America, but that'll be out of choice and respect for the differences in culture etc.

Looking at any reasonable definition of a "terrorist organisation", the CIA satisfies all its criteria.

Well China is a tyranny still, although economically it is freer than it was in the 70s (not difficult though). Human rights in China are still non-existent. China can only become more free by becoming more like the US, which is essentially what it is doing, at a glacial speed.

I do not know that Nazi rule would not have collapsed. What I do know is that there was the USSR to fill its place - a murderous tyranny every bit as bad as the Fascist Reich. Without the USA's influence, both direct (through occupation of West Germany) and indirect (providing an alternative ideology), I predict the entirety of Western Europe (sans Great Britain) could easily have come under Soviet rule post-WWII as Eastern Europe did in reality. There would have been no Gorbachev, no Reagan, no tearing down of any walls, just simple mindless dictatorship. And we all know from history that Europe can remain barbarous and unfree for centuries with very little progress.

The havoc today is entirely the fault of Islamists. If it weren't for them, Iraq would be a stable, liberal democracy today. You can argue that it was a bad idea for the USA to invade because it was inevitable that Islamists would take over, which is a fair point and one which I subscribe to (even though it's pessimistic), however what you must not do is say America bears the responsibility for the crimes of its enemies.

Do you think America is as billigerent as Britain was in it's foriegn policy?

The culture is so different though. The biggest walls seem to exist in people's minds. It isn't necessarily the government that is oppressing them. I don't think the US system would work at all, and I don't think the Chinese would support it. I do think China is attempting to respect certain human rights, and I think they accept everyone is of equal worth... It's just that they believe a strict hierarchy is essential for society to work, and they feel people can only be good by performing the duties of their role well. You can't impose democracy, it would be immensely destabilising and it would lead to a lot of bloodshed, and probably economic collapse. The Chinese economy is very capitalistic, and the market is free because it's been shown to work. I'm personally not convinced democracy is the best political system. Not sure I'd vote for it if given the choice. Surely, if most people felt that way the system wouldn't be a democracy?

I think the USSR would have collapsed, especially if it over expanded to dominate the whole of Europe. Western Europe would have lived through some horrible times, but I think it would have emerged again. To be honest these are all huge what ifs, and I think they are quite useless. I appreciate the sacrifice of the young American boys who threw themselves at our shores, and it breaks my heart that so many of them died. However, I will not excuse the recent mistakes of the American government because another American government chose to send young Americans into a war that didn't concern them.

While it is true that the CIA have supported some pretty disgusting criminals in the past, especially in Latin America, the point remains that the CIA are fighting to defend a free country. By contrast, Al Qaeda is fighting to set up tyrannical societies worldwide. And I don't think the CIA specifically target civilians like most terrorist organisations do. You have to be quite lenient to call the CIA a terrorist organisation, such that almost no intelligence agency would actually fail to be classified as one.

People seem to miss the fact that barring the actions of insurgent groups both Iraq and Afghanistan are a hell of a lot better than they used to be. I'm still not sure that either war was a good idea and there's no doubt that the US has done some nasty stuff, but comparing the US to the Nazis or even Putin is unrealistic. If Hitler had made a habit of invading only brutal repressive dictatorships and then pouring in money to support democracy and female education I think history would have a markedly different opinion of him.

No, the Middle East just wants you to think they are corrupt

The majority of Middle Eastern Countries are pro America so your comment does not make much sense.

I think from the responses of this thread its pretty clear most people are clued up in regards to American foreign policy and their crimes, its pretty much common knowledge. I would encourage you to do some research on this topic.

People seem to miss the fact that barring the actions of insurgent groups both Iraq and Afghanistan are a hell of a lot better than they used to be. I'm still not sure that either war was a good idea and there's no doubt that the US has done some nasty stuff, but comparing the US to the Nazis or even Putin is unrealistic. If Hitler had made a habit of invading only brutal repressive dictatorships and then pouring in money to support democracy and female education I think history would have a markedly different opinion of him.

The CIA helped set up the Mujahadeen, Taliban and Al Qaeda in the first place. MI6 has a lot to answer for too, don't get me wrong. But the CIA are another level. They've backed more dictators than any organisation worldwide. Half of South America had dictators propped up by the CIA (think Pinochet, Noriega etc.) and that's before you move onto the Middle East and Asia. As I said every major terrorist network was funded in part by the American government during the Cold War. They only cared about containing the Russians, nothing more.

It is not the soldiers themselves which I am talking about. It is the ideas which America represents and tries to defend. During the past century, the only country as willing to do so as America was Britain, but Britain was far less materially able. You can have faith that in America's absence, Western Europe would have regained its freedom, but to me it seems unlikely. Anyway, the claim of the thread was that America is the "real terrorist". If that is the case, then we wouldn't even be talking about America in the context of defending freedom. We would be talking about America in the context of imposing tyranny. The mistakes of American foreign policy in the past decades are not about America being the "real terrorist", they are about it misjudging its capabilities and misjudging the enemies of its enemies.

As for China and democracy, well you can think that Chinese are incapable of being free if you so wish. I'll just ask you to think about the fact that a few centuries ago, people were burned in Western Europe for heresy. Today it is a highly concentrated region of liberal democracies.

I agree, and 9/11 was an inside job too, Building 7 couldn't have gone down at freefall speed due to fires alone. **** the US government

I'm an American and I agree with you for the most part. Then again, I'm a terrible American and I can't wait to move abroad.

I don't think the Chinese are incapable of being free, I just think their definition is different. I also think 'we' should let them sort their issues out. Imposing your definition (even if it is right) will make people oppose it, and it will cause trouble in the long run. It would be especially sad if your system was the best because they'd reject it just because you forced it on them. I think all people are perfectly capable to get their kind of freedom autonomously, I don't think America needs to intervene. Democracy was first thought of and implemented in Europe after all, and it spread to America.

America pretends to be defending ideas. It is really defending its own interests, which is fair enough, but it can't act all outraged when other countries try to do the same. America's mistake was to invade of loads of random countries (to further its interests), and to impose its system of thought on these countries. Democracy needs to grow in a country. It can't be imposed on the people, as that would be undermining its fundamental principles.