Poorer people hate immigration. Discuss.
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I wouldn't say poorer people. I would say people who can't see both sides to the argument and are just focused on one side of the argument and are just being naive.
If the individual is 'educated' (not in the traditional sense) and they can see both sides of the argument and weighs up both pros and cons and can make a justified reason to their opinion then I would say their opinion is valid. I'm pretty sure both poor and wealthier people can do this. It just depends on whether people are willing to be a bit more open minded.
If the individual is 'educated' (not in the traditional sense) and they can see both sides of the argument and weighs up both pros and cons and can make a justified reason to their opinion then I would say their opinion is valid. I'm pretty sure both poor and wealthier people can do this. It just depends on whether people are willing to be a bit more open minded.
Original post by Creat0r
You just said a lot without saying anything at all. Firstly, Farage isn't far-right at all, he wants a reformed Europe not a 19th century Europe.
Why is it scary that UKIP are gaining votes, what's scary about it?
"We shouldn't blame poor people" actually as you get older you will realise people of all classes have a good idea about what they believe in politically and this is gained mostly from life experience rather than oddball lecturers and ****ty newspapers like the Guardian. Do not patronise the poor and claim because they are poor and uneducated they're duped into voting UKIP.
Why is it scary that UKIP are gaining votes, what's scary about it?
"We shouldn't blame poor people" actually as you get older you will realise people of all classes have a good idea about what they believe in politically and this is gained mostly from life experience rather than oddball lecturers and ****ty newspapers like the Guardian. Do not patronise the poor and claim because they are poor and uneducated they're duped into voting UKIP.
Why would I or anyone base my political views on my own experience when I am voting with regard to what affects a whole country? Seems bizarre, I am well aware my personal experience is not that of the vast majority, for the very reason that it is personal, and this does not seem limited to my generation, most of my parents' friends and people I work with vote based upon fact and not perception, I would say it is insulting to older people to suggest they vote only on a narrow world view when many do read around the subject.
Original post by thesabbath
Ah yes, that magnificent "open mind": if you don't agree with the extreme Left on open borders, multiculturalism and being toe-curlingly politically correct lest someone, anywhere, takes offence, you don't have one.
Most people I know who like immigration are not left wing but rather liberal right wing, they work in large businesses at a senior level and see that it improves their profits, and as a result the nation's GDP, employ immigrants at various levels. Also, for the minority who vote primarily in self interest, it means their nannies, cleaners, gardeners and so on are cheaper.
Why does have having a degree have such an impact on views? Discuss
1. Well educated people usually (and depending on their field) have a better knowledge of the different cultures that exist and they're not so "scared" of the unknown/different like less educated people are. Scare of a different culture is a common reason for anti - immigrant feelings.
2. Well educated people usually (and depending on the field of their studies -again-) have a deeper knowledge of current affairs and international political/economical issues which is resulting in them having a better understanding of the immigration as a socioeconomic phenomenon.
3. Many university graduates (worldwide) see immigration as a prospect for themselves, due to the current financial problems that most countries face.
* That been said, I know a lot of University Degree holders that hate immigrants and the whole concept of immigration. Well, I'd guess that Higher Education didn't do much for them anyway.
----------------------------------
Impact on the economy
That's a tough one. Many conservatives wouldn't have the courage to admit that immigration is actually benefiting for the economy (of the "few") because more thirsty-for-a-job people are competiting for fewer positions, something that results in lower wages (gradually). So that's a reason a high earner would consider immigration benefiting for the economy.
Cultural impact
Same as the first one.
1. Well educated people usually (and depending on their field) have a better knowledge of the different cultures that exist and they're not so "scared" of the unknown/different like less educated people are. Scare of a different culture is a common reason for anti - immigrant feelings.
2. Well educated people usually (and depending on the field of their studies -again-) have a deeper knowledge of current affairs and international political/economical issues which is resulting in them having a better understanding of the immigration as a socioeconomic phenomenon.
3. Many university graduates (worldwide) see immigration as a prospect for themselves, due to the current financial problems that most countries face.
* That been said, I know a lot of University Degree holders that hate immigrants and the whole concept of immigration. Well, I'd guess that Higher Education didn't do much for them anyway.
----------------------------------
Impact on the economy
That's a tough one. Many conservatives wouldn't have the courage to admit that immigration is actually benefiting for the economy (of the "few") because more thirsty-for-a-job people are competiting for fewer positions, something that results in lower wages (gradually). So that's a reason a high earner would consider immigration benefiting for the economy.
Cultural impact
Same as the first one.
Yea working class people are just morons really, they dont know what's good for them. When they see their wages or employment opportunities declining because of immigrant labour, when they notice that their kids now attend a school where most kids come from a very different cultural background and have poor English skills, when they are concerned that the Pakistani gentlemen who work in the local kebab show seem to be approaching young girls around their own daughters age, when they notice that the queues at the GP seem to be getting longer or when they notice that the area they call home now feels like a foreign country, when they notice that crime has gone through the roof and that there seems to be a correlation with mass immigration, they yes of course they are merely showing their ignorance.
Meanwhile of course the upper middle class are simply more intelligent, they hold all the correct right on views. They eat twice a month at that delightful Syrian restaurant in town, and isn't it all this colourful diversity wonderful! Sometimes they even visit multicultural areas
before returning to their own nice safe lillywhite suburbs, not because they themselves prefer their own culture you see, it's just one of those things. Little Amelda naturally attends a private school, those kids at the local 6th form did seem awfully rough. And besides, the Bulgarian nanny is just wonderful and isn't she cheap! It makes them feel so much more smug when they hold their dinner parties and compete for who holds the most 'right on' views! ''I was a communist radical in '68 dont you know, hahah, pass the sherry''
Why dont those rotten plebs just get with the programme and stop complaining?
Meanwhile of course the upper middle class are simply more intelligent, they hold all the correct right on views. They eat twice a month at that delightful Syrian restaurant in town, and isn't it all this colourful diversity wonderful! Sometimes they even visit multicultural areas
before returning to their own nice safe lillywhite suburbs, not because they themselves prefer their own culture you see, it's just one of those things. Little Amelda naturally attends a private school, those kids at the local 6th form did seem awfully rough. And besides, the Bulgarian nanny is just wonderful and isn't she cheap! It makes them feel so much more smug when they hold their dinner parties and compete for who holds the most 'right on' views! ''I was a communist radical in '68 dont you know, hahah, pass the sherry''Why dont those rotten plebs just get with the programme and stop complaining?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by thesabbath
Ah yes, that magnificent "open mind": if you don't agree with the extreme Left on open borders, multiculturalism and being toe-curlingly politically correct lest someone, anywhere, takes offence, you don't have one.
Except that often the comments and opinions are actually close minded.
Original post by Zürich
Yea working class people are just morons really, they dont know what's good for them. When they see their wages or employment opportunities declining because of immigrant labour, when they notice that their kids now attend a school where most kids come from a very different cultural background and have poor English skills, when they are concerned that the Pakistani gentlemen who work in the local kebab show seem to be approaching young girls around their own daughters age, when they notice that the queues at the GP seem to be getting longer or when they notice that the area they call home now feels like a foreign country, when they notice that crime has gone through the roof and that there seems to be a correlation with mass immigration, they yes of course they are merely showing their ignorance.
Meanwhile of course the upper middle class are simply more intelligent, they hold all the correct right on views. They eat twice a month at that delightful Syrian restaurant in town, and isn't it all this colourful diversity wonderful! Sometimes they even visit multicultural areas before returning to their own nice safe lillywhite suburbs, not because they themselves prefer their own culture you see, it's just one of those things. Little Amelda naturally attends a private school, those kids at the local 6th form did seem awfully rough. And besides, the Bulgarian nanny is just wonderful and isn't she cheap! It makes them feel so much more smug when they hold their dinner parties and compete for who holds the most 'right on' views! ''I was a communist radical in '68 dont you know, hahah, pass the sherry''
Why dont those rotten plebs just get with the programme and stop complaining?
Meanwhile of course the upper middle class are simply more intelligent, they hold all the correct right on views. They eat twice a month at that delightful Syrian restaurant in town, and isn't it all this colourful diversity wonderful! Sometimes they even visit multicultural areas
before returning to their own nice safe lillywhite suburbs, not because they themselves prefer their own culture you see, it's just one of those things. Little Amelda naturally attends a private school, those kids at the local 6th form did seem awfully rough. And besides, the Bulgarian nanny is just wonderful and isn't she cheap! It makes them feel so much more smug when they hold their dinner parties and compete for who holds the most 'right on' views! ''I was a communist radical in '68 dont you know, hahah, pass the sherry''Why dont those rotten plebs just get with the programme and stop complaining?
I won't argue against your point about limited resources, but different cultures can get on with each other. The more you spend time with someone from a different one and get over the differences, the more you'll get on. Also, culture initially just creates divisions, and puts people against each other when they'd get on.
Original post by Zürich
Or the resentment and mutual suspicion between factions destroys what was once a real community?
They don't own that bit of land they placed their community on, so the people living there can't say certain people can't come in.
People clutching a degree exit Uni thinking they are close to the top of the societal dung heap. They can look down on others just because they have attained a qualification. Many will think themselves better in many ways than those they look down upon and scorn.
But the truth is, that the wrong sort of immigration is bad for us all.
Selective immigration as practised in more developed nations than the UK, is the way to go.
Do not think for one minute that just because your clutching your little bit of paper, that the cold winds of competition will not whip around you.
There is competition everywhere and there are plenty of immigrant so called "professionals" who will do that work cheaper,better or at least provide increased competition and choice to customers with an end result of lowered income for all concerned.
Dont feed others to the wolves to save your own necks for when they are consumed,the wolves will come for you..
But the truth is, that the wrong sort of immigration is bad for us all.
Selective immigration as practised in more developed nations than the UK, is the way to go.
Do not think for one minute that just because your clutching your little bit of paper, that the cold winds of competition will not whip around you.
There is competition everywhere and there are plenty of immigrant so called "professionals" who will do that work cheaper,better or at least provide increased competition and choice to customers with an end result of lowered income for all concerned.
Dont feed others to the wolves to save your own necks for when they are consumed,the wolves will come for you..
Original post by tehforum
http://www.natcen.ac.uk/media/205573/immigration-bsa31.pdf
Cliffs:
56% say that immigration should be reduced a lot
21% say that immigration should be reduced a little
The Daily Mail has done it's nasty job
On this question, 57% of degree holders said that immigration should be reduced a lot
Compare this to
GCSE level or no qualifications people 85%.
Why does have having a degree have such an impact on views? Discuss
Indeed, there's not too much variation in this question re: household incomes or job description
Conservatives hold the most conservative views on this, unsurprisingly.
86% want immigration reduced a lot, compared to 71% of Labourites.
----------------------------------
Impact on the economy
47% said it's bad
20% said neither
31% said good
Again, degree holders hold more liberal views.
60% said immigration has good impacts on the economy
As opposed to 17% for GCSE holders, or no qualification holders.
It is interesting to note that for this question, that household incomes did affect the variance of data.
The highest quartile of earners - 48% of them said it's good.
Compare that to Q1 (lowest) and Q2 (second lowest) 23% and 24% of them respectively.
Why do you think this is the case? I suggest that higher earners are more educated by holding a degree..
------------------------------------------
Cultural impact
45% said it has undermined Britain's cultural life
This is, in my opinion, staggering. top lel, what culture?
19% said neither
31% said it has enriched it
65% of degree holders say it has enriched our culture
Compare that to GCSE and no qualification holders - 19% and 17% respectively....
Indeed, the lower the income, the lower the percentage of people expressed a view that said migrants have enriched our culture. That is to be expected.
Discuss everything
Cliffs:
56% say that immigration should be reduced a lot
21% say that immigration should be reduced a little
The Daily Mail has done it's nasty job
On this question, 57% of degree holders said that immigration should be reduced a lot
Compare this to
GCSE level or no qualifications people 85%.
Why does have having a degree have such an impact on views? Discuss
Indeed, there's not too much variation in this question re: household incomes or job description
Conservatives hold the most conservative views on this, unsurprisingly.
86% want immigration reduced a lot, compared to 71% of Labourites.
----------------------------------
Impact on the economy
47% said it's bad
20% said neither
31% said good
Again, degree holders hold more liberal views.
60% said immigration has good impacts on the economy
As opposed to 17% for GCSE holders, or no qualification holders.
It is interesting to note that for this question, that household incomes did affect the variance of data.
The highest quartile of earners - 48% of them said it's good.
Compare that to Q1 (lowest) and Q2 (second lowest) 23% and 24% of them respectively.
Why do you think this is the case? I suggest that higher earners are more educated by holding a degree..
------------------------------------------
Cultural impact
45% said it has undermined Britain's cultural life
This is, in my opinion, staggering. top lel, what culture?
19% said neither
31% said it has enriched it
65% of degree holders say it has enriched our culture
Compare that to GCSE and no qualification holders - 19% and 17% respectively....
Indeed, the lower the income, the lower the percentage of people expressed a view that said migrants have enriched our culture. That is to be expected.
Discuss everything
People looking at dead end jobs who have never got any decent qualifications would obviously blame immigrants regardless, little do they realise its the same immigrants that are more highly skilled and better for such jobs i.e mcdonalds and these weak minded individuals turn to other means to blame them i.e join ukip
Original post by Ripper-Roo
They don't own that bit of land they placed their community on, so the people living there can't say certain people can't come in.
No the people are absolutely powerless. It is the elites who control that.
Fact of the matter is that it all sounds warm and fuzzy to talk about multiculturalism but the only way immigration is going to succeed is through assimilation into the native culture. Different cultures living on top of each other long term almost invariably end up in conflict, all throughout history and to the present day. Humans are tribal beings, accept it.
Original post by Zürich
No the people are absolutely powerless. It is the elites who control that.
Fact of the matter is that it all sounds warm and fuzzy to talk about multiculturalism but the only way immigration is going to succeed is through assimilation into the native culture. Different cultures living on top of each other long term almost invariably end up in conflict, all throughout history and to the present day. Humans are tribal beings, accept it.
Fact of the matter is that it all sounds warm and fuzzy to talk about multiculturalism but the only way immigration is going to succeed is through assimilation into the native culture. Different cultures living on top of each other long term almost invariably end up in conflict, all throughout history and to the present day. Humans are tribal beings, accept it.
Only if you reinforce that you are part of a certain culture and therefore should hate that other person from a different one.
Original post by Creat0r
You just said a lot without saying anything at all. Firstly, Farage isn't far-right at all, he wants a reformed Europe not a 19th century Europe.
Depends what you define "far-right" as. In my mind he is, but I'm on the far left so maybe my opinion is a bit skewed?
Original post by Creat0r
Why is it scary that UKIP are gaining votes, what's scary about it?
A lot of their growth is due to scaremongering about immigration and the EU.
Original post by Creat0r
"We shouldn't blame poor people" actually as you get older you will realise people of all classes have a good idea about what they believe in politically and this is gained mostly from life experience rather than oddball lecturers and ****ty newspapers like the Guardian.
The problem here is that the richer you are the more ability you have to influence the opinions of others. What newspapers or news programmes due you know of that are run by working class people? with the heavily bias media presented to them in the Sun, Daily Mail, etc., it's no wonder a lot of people start hating on immigrants (as well as benefit "scroungers", etc.)
Before you accuse me of being some middle class student; I'm the son of a postman and a shop assistant. I went to a crappy state school where I often didn't have enough money to get a proper lunch and got bullied because my uniform was too small and couldn't afford a new one. My only job thus far was at McDonalds and currently I'm on benefits due to my depression/anxiety. I'm not a university student nor do I intend to become one any time soon, and no, I don't read the Guardian or any newspaper.
I'm also a former UKIP supporter as it happens.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by james1211
Are you the guy who is in the armed forces?
Too bad, should have stuck in at school.
Too bad, should have stuck in at school.
Total ignorance.
Original post by Ripper-Roo
x
Listen man, you're getting slapped silly here...just stop.
Original post by tengentoppa
Makes perfect sense. If you're well-qualified, the threat of cheap labour coming and undermining you isn't as large a problem. It's not like there's a massive number of Romanian engineers and lawyers coming here to, as it were, "take our jobs". That's why the BNP and EDL are comprised almost solely of working-class people.
I think, pragmatically, even those whose job isn't threatened by immigration want it curbed. We are after all, a small island with limited resources.
I think, pragmatically, even those whose job isn't threatened by immigration want it curbed. We are after all, a small island with limited resources.
What makes you think that?
Original post by thesabbath
Some subjective points:
1. The younger you are, the more likely you are to hold a "degree". Consider how many were going to University in the '60s and '70s, and contrast that with the past couple of decades. Young people have been subjected their entire life to politically correct indoctrination and the BBC/State religion of multiculturalism. Additionally, older people remember the nation as it was and therefore have no reason to believe or kowtow to the PC lie that the UK is nowt but a "nation of immigrants" and Abdul fresh off the boat is "just as British as you or I". Labour wins by far the most votes from immigrants because it panders so heavily towards them (at the expense of their native white working class voter base).
2. Impact on economy. There are conflicting polls out there. Left wing academia (relying heavily on the State for funding) produces headline "good" figures by ignoring things like in-work benefits and having to pay the dole to a native worker displaced by a min-wage immigrant. Other think tanks like Civitas and Migration Watch who get smeared by the left-wing press as "biased" will demonstrate that immigration has either made negligible or negative economic impact, particularly since the mid 1990s. The left will say that 1 in 7 businesses in the UK are started by immigrants; I will point to the hundreds of thousands of "ethnic" restaurants and fast food outlets and takeaways and minicab drivers who never hire any but their own.
3. Academia is an anti-British anti-white circle jerk (evident in your "what culture" remark, would you say that to someone from any other nation?) which breeds political correctness and the politically correct are more likely to parrot "diversity" and "vibrancy" and "multiculturalism" as being the greatest parts about "modern Britain" as they are worried about being socially ostracised (or indeed losing their jobs) if they deviate from the party line, even in something as anonymous as a poll.
1. The younger you are, the more likely you are to hold a "degree". Consider how many were going to University in the '60s and '70s, and contrast that with the past couple of decades. Young people have been subjected their entire life to politically correct indoctrination and the BBC/State religion of multiculturalism. Additionally, older people remember the nation as it was and therefore have no reason to believe or kowtow to the PC lie that the UK is nowt but a "nation of immigrants" and Abdul fresh off the boat is "just as British as you or I". Labour wins by far the most votes from immigrants because it panders so heavily towards them (at the expense of their native white working class voter base).
2. Impact on economy. There are conflicting polls out there. Left wing academia (relying heavily on the State for funding) produces headline "good" figures by ignoring things like in-work benefits and having to pay the dole to a native worker displaced by a min-wage immigrant. Other think tanks like Civitas and Migration Watch who get smeared by the left-wing press as "biased" will demonstrate that immigration has either made negligible or negative economic impact, particularly since the mid 1990s. The left will say that 1 in 7 businesses in the UK are started by immigrants; I will point to the hundreds of thousands of "ethnic" restaurants and fast food outlets and takeaways and minicab drivers who never hire any but their own.
3. Academia is an anti-British anti-white circle jerk (evident in your "what culture" remark, would you say that to someone from any other nation?) which breeds political correctness and the politically correct are more likely to parrot "diversity" and "vibrancy" and "multiculturalism" as being the greatest parts about "modern Britain" as they are worried about being socially ostracised (or indeed losing their jobs) if they deviate from the party line, even in something as anonymous as a poll.
This is why we need negging back.
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
This is why we need negging back.
Do you have some opposing points of view that are measurable?
Original post by thunder_chunky
Except that often the comments and opinions are actually close minded.
If this is true, then how is it different to saying "more immigrants are in prison, per capita, than natives"? Y'know, the sort of thing that upsets you when those who oppose mass immigration and extreme multiculturalism point it out.
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