Is being a nice guy something that won't benefit me?
I've got a reputation for being a 'Nice Guy' as in, I joke around, treat people well, make sure everyones alright and generally be respectful. For example, theres one girl in our year (I'm in Y11) and she's incredibly pretty, but, the others guys only comment on her backside and plenty of times, she's had to inform teachers of harassment. I treat her like a sister, whenever she feels the slightest ill, I'll help her and I treat her well. To the others guys, this is flirting and it pisses me off, I'll admit, she's very pretty and kind. But I don't feel that attraction for her.
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
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Girls hate nice guys. Read 50 Shades of Grey and you'll see what they really want 
You have to find that balance between being nice, but also show you're interested in her for a relationship and not just a friendship (which are the signs you show when being a nice guy). You have to find that being forwards/being backwards balance.
Still, the 50 Shades tip ain't bad...
You have to find that balance between being nice, but also show you're interested in her for a relationship and not just a friendship (which are the signs you show when being a nice guy). You have to find that being forwards/being backwards balance.
Still, the 50 Shades tip ain't bad...
There is a lot more to attraction than being simply 'nice'. I would never date a sexist pig, but I also know someone who is probably the objectively 'nicest' guy I know but I wouldn't go out with him. Ignoring physical attraction as you haven't really talked about that (he's not unattractive, but simply not my type) there are a number of reasons I wouldn't go out with him:
1) his self-esteem is a complete black hole. He's so self-deprecating that it is completely impossible sometimes to get through to him. I find this irritating as a friend. It is also something that contributes to his 'niceness' as it means he has no backbone. rather than acting in his own interest or defending himself he'll squirm into a ball and say he's sorry. Confidence is attractive for a number of reasons, few people want to date someone who allows themselves to be walked all over.
2) he can be a little needy and overbearing. He cares so much that it gets intrusive to personal space. I know he has the best interests at heart but he doesn't understand when sometimes being caring means maybe giving someone some space for a while.
3) as oxymoronic as it may seem, all of the above means he can be quite self-pitying. He's always using the 'but I don't understand, I'm a nice guy!' tactic and he doesn't seem to see why being nice isn't the be all and end all of the world.
You seem to be similar to this guy. Stop trying to blame a wider societal issue for your experiences. Nice guys are valuable to all women, but there is a lot more to it than that. You're not single just because you're a 'nice guy', you may instead be single because you have confidence issues or may appear overbearing. Confidence wins in most aspects of life. Or maybe, just maybe, no matter what you think women you have pursued may just not have found you attractive in that way for some reason, but may otherwise value you as a person. People can choose without it necessarily being a reflection on you.
1) his self-esteem is a complete black hole. He's so self-deprecating that it is completely impossible sometimes to get through to him. I find this irritating as a friend. It is also something that contributes to his 'niceness' as it means he has no backbone. rather than acting in his own interest or defending himself he'll squirm into a ball and say he's sorry. Confidence is attractive for a number of reasons, few people want to date someone who allows themselves to be walked all over.
2) he can be a little needy and overbearing. He cares so much that it gets intrusive to personal space. I know he has the best interests at heart but he doesn't understand when sometimes being caring means maybe giving someone some space for a while.
3) as oxymoronic as it may seem, all of the above means he can be quite self-pitying. He's always using the 'but I don't understand, I'm a nice guy!' tactic and he doesn't seem to see why being nice isn't the be all and end all of the world.
You seem to be similar to this guy. Stop trying to blame a wider societal issue for your experiences. Nice guys are valuable to all women, but there is a lot more to it than that. You're not single just because you're a 'nice guy', you may instead be single because you have confidence issues or may appear overbearing. Confidence wins in most aspects of life. Or maybe, just maybe, no matter what you think women you have pursued may just not have found you attractive in that way for some reason, but may otherwise value you as a person. People can choose without it necessarily being a reflection on you.
(edited 10 years ago)
Depends if you're genuinely a nice person and just being yourself. Or if you're just pretending to be nice to girls because you think it will get you poossy
Girls don't hate nice guys, but being nice doesn't create attraction, if that makes sense.
Ignore the other guys, if there is something girls really hate, it's immaturity. Make sure you are focused on yourself and yeah look out for her, but don't over-commit unless you are together and don't be the funny guy too much. Accept she might not like you that way and be willing to move on without even trying to be her friend (if you do she might come back later) and make sure she knows you like her.
Ignore the other guys, if there is something girls really hate, it's immaturity. Make sure you are focused on yourself and yeah look out for her, but don't over-commit unless you are together and don't be the funny guy too much. Accept she might not like you that way and be willing to move on without even trying to be her friend (if you do she might come back later) and make sure she knows you like her.
Please don't read or attempt to emulate the idiocies of '50 Shades'. That book has no words of wisdom on being a 'bad' or 'nice' guy it's just a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of a d/s relationship.
You need to stop worrying about what other people think, and that goes for those who would call you 'too nice' and also for those to whom you feel obligated to be extremely nice to. It's lovely to be nice but it's also lovely to say what you want, when you want to, and not have to worry about whether you are being nice or not. There's a difference between being friendly and helpful and then the connotations which come with the word you're using. Most very nice guys I know (won't explain too much because Jess nailed it) are so nice and so used to being thus that they actually seem very conflicted and angry on the inside - some of what you say suggests this too. And that's not good. Don't put on a nice guy mask - just be yourself, whether that's being a bit blunt sometimes or not. Women don't need special 'nice' treatment, or to be put on a pedestal, even within year eleven they will appreciate you for being you, not someone who would be apologetic for a momentary lack of niceness.
Also, I hope the school responded appropriately to that girl's complaints rather than just shrugged it off?
PRSOM.
You need to stop worrying about what other people think, and that goes for those who would call you 'too nice' and also for those to whom you feel obligated to be extremely nice to. It's lovely to be nice but it's also lovely to say what you want, when you want to, and not have to worry about whether you are being nice or not. There's a difference between being friendly and helpful and then the connotations which come with the word you're using. Most very nice guys I know (won't explain too much because Jess nailed it) are so nice and so used to being thus that they actually seem very conflicted and angry on the inside - some of what you say suggests this too. And that's not good. Don't put on a nice guy mask - just be yourself, whether that's being a bit blunt sometimes or not. Women don't need special 'nice' treatment, or to be put on a pedestal, even within year eleven they will appreciate you for being you, not someone who would be apologetic for a momentary lack of niceness.
Also, I hope the school responded appropriately to that girl's complaints rather than just shrugged it off?
Original post by Jessaay!
There is a lot more to attraction than being simply 'nice'. I would never date a sexist pig, but I also know someone who is probably the objectively 'nicest' guy I know but I wouldn't go out with him. Ignoring physical attraction as you haven't really talked about that (he's not unattractive, but simply not my type) there are a number of reasons I wouldn't go out with him:
1) his self-esteem is a complete black hole. He's so self-deprecating that it is completely impossible sometimes to get through to him. I find this irritating as a friend. It is also something that contributes to his 'niceness' as it means he has no backbone. rather than acting in his own interest or defending himself he'll squirm into a ball and say he's sorry. Confidence is attractive for a number of reasons, few people want to date someone who allows themselves to be walked all over.
2) he can be a little needy and overbearing. He cares so much that it gets intrusive to personal space. I know he has the best interests at heart but he doesn't understand when sometimes being caring means maybe giving someone some space for a while.
3) as oxymoronic as it may seem, all of the above means he can be quite self-pitying. He's always using the 'but I don't understand, I'm a nice guy!' tactic and he doesn't seem to see why being nice isn't the be all and end all of the world.
You seem to be similar to this guy. Stop trying to blame a wider societal issue for your experiences. Nice guys are valuable to all women, but there is a lot more to it than that. You're not single just because you're a 'nice guy', you may instead be single because you have confidence issues or may appear overbearing. Confidence wins in most aspects of life. Or maybe, just maybe, no matter what you think women you have pursued may just not have found you attractive in that way for some reason, but may otherwise value you as a person. People can choose without it necessarily being a reflection on you.
1) his self-esteem is a complete black hole. He's so self-deprecating that it is completely impossible sometimes to get through to him. I find this irritating as a friend. It is also something that contributes to his 'niceness' as it means he has no backbone. rather than acting in his own interest or defending himself he'll squirm into a ball and say he's sorry. Confidence is attractive for a number of reasons, few people want to date someone who allows themselves to be walked all over.
2) he can be a little needy and overbearing. He cares so much that it gets intrusive to personal space. I know he has the best interests at heart but he doesn't understand when sometimes being caring means maybe giving someone some space for a while.
3) as oxymoronic as it may seem, all of the above means he can be quite self-pitying. He's always using the 'but I don't understand, I'm a nice guy!' tactic and he doesn't seem to see why being nice isn't the be all and end all of the world.
You seem to be similar to this guy. Stop trying to blame a wider societal issue for your experiences. Nice guys are valuable to all women, but there is a lot more to it than that. You're not single just because you're a 'nice guy', you may instead be single because you have confidence issues or may appear overbearing. Confidence wins in most aspects of life. Or maybe, just maybe, no matter what you think women you have pursued may just not have found you attractive in that way for some reason, but may otherwise value you as a person. People can choose without it necessarily being a reflection on you.
PRSOM.
My confidence is good, sure, sometimes I get a little knocked down. But this year, due to moving last year. I've got over 9 science exams, when I tell people, they get worried for me but I'm confident I can do it. So confidence isn't a problem.
I do not do it for attention. I do it because its natural to me, if someone falls over, I'll help. If someones ill, I'll help. Is humanity so screwed that being kind is now seen as something sinister?
I do not do it for attention. I do it because its natural to me, if someone falls over, I'll help. If someones ill, I'll help. Is humanity so screwed that being kind is now seen as something sinister?
Original post by Anonymous
My confidence is good, sure, sometimes I get a little knocked down. But this year, due to moving last year. I've got over 9 science exams, when I tell people, they get worried for me but I'm confident I can do it. So confidence isn't a problem.
I do not do it for attention. I do it because its natural to me, if someone falls over, I'll help. If someones ill, I'll help. Is humanity so screwed that being kind is now seen as something sinister?
I do not do it for attention. I do it because its natural to me, if someone falls over, I'll help. If someones ill, I'll help. Is humanity so screwed that being kind is now seen as something sinister?
Confidence isn't entirely about being brave and doing exams or being outgoing and sociable, confidence is having value in yourself and not questioning your worth just because of what other people say.
This thread proves you have some confidence issues in that you're questioning your own worth compared to other guys, and also you seem to not have defended yourself to the other people who have put you down.
No, it is not seen as sinister. You're completely changing what I said. However being nice is simply not the only value in the world and you need to be yourself and do what you want rather than just putting on your hat of niceness.
Your last statement about how humanity is screwed up because it doesn't appreciate your kindness in the way you would expect shows how you're expecting something for your kindness and also how you're self-pitying and blaming society for not appreciating you.
People may appreciate your kindness, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily want to go out with you romantically.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Anonymous
If someones ill, I'll help. Is humanity so screwed that being kind is now seen as something sinister?
You're getting confused between the difference of "nice guy" and "being a little pussy boy pushover". Here's how I normally relate it to people.
Being a douchebag/dickhead = Yeah you'll get laid but it'll be with emotionally unstable girls who've been ****ed over my past dickheads in the past and will thus most likely mind**** you.
Being a little pussy boy pushover = You will get used by men and women alike to do anything they want. Attention giving, cooking, compliment giver. You'll get used so much and never get a decent girl. Possibly a crazy one that'll lure you into the pregnancy trap.
Being a nice guy + confident = Girls will throw themselves at you and make it clear they want to be around you.
Ask yourself whether you can have a strong relationship with someone who treats you badly, and you have your answer. At the moment, many girls will be immature and give their inexperienced hearts to the bad guy, largely because he is perceived to be exciting and everyone wants him. But, a few years after that, that guy will probably be cast aside and women will see a lot in the "nice" guy who is genuine and won't let them down. There is nothing wrong - and everything right - with being the good guy, and you should not try to change that just to get someone's attention. That, of course, isn't to say that you should let people walk over you. Being the good guy =/= having no personality. It simply means not trampling over other's feelings for your own satisfaction or benefit.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Knighted
Being a douchebag/dickhead = Yeah you'll get laid but it'll be with emotionally unstable girls who've been ****ed over my past dickheads in the past and will thus most likely mind**** you.
Being a little pussy boy pushover = You will get used by men and women alike to do anything they want. Attention giving, cooking, compliment giver. You'll get used so much and never get a decent girl. Possibly a crazy one that'll lure you into the pregnancy trap.
Being a nice guy + confident = Girls will throw themselves at you and make it clear they want to be around you.
Being a douchebag/dickhead = Yeah you'll get laid but it'll be with emotionally unstable girls who've been ****ed over my past dickheads in the past and will thus most likely mind**** you.
Being a little pussy boy pushover = You will get used by men and women alike to do anything they want. Attention giving, cooking, compliment giver. You'll get used so much and never get a decent girl. Possibly a crazy one that'll lure you into the pregnancy trap.
Being a nice guy + confident = Girls will throw themselves at you and make it clear they want to be around you.
This is all quite dependant on how 'attractive' you are.
(edited 10 years ago)
Guys. I'm not a coward, or whatever. I stand up for myself, defend myself. And I don't do what I'm forced to do.
If someone was doing wrong to me, I'd make it clear. Gosh, your comments are kinda like saying. Because someone is nice, they're weak? No. I can handle problems, and I have. All that matters here is, I treat everyone who deserves to be treated well, well.
If someone was doing wrong to me, I'd make it clear. Gosh, your comments are kinda like saying. Because someone is nice, they're weak? No. I can handle problems, and I have. All that matters here is, I treat everyone who deserves to be treated well, well.
Original post by Anonymous
Guys. I'm not a coward, or whatever. I stand up for myself, defend myself. And I don't do what I'm forced to do.
If someone was doing wrong to me, I'd make it clear. Gosh, your comments are kinda like saying. Because someone is nice, they're weak? No. I can handle problems, and I have. All that matters here is, I treat everyone who deserves to be treated well, well.
If someone was doing wrong to me, I'd make it clear. Gosh, your comments are kinda like saying. Because someone is nice, they're weak? No. I can handle problems, and I have. All that matters here is, I treat everyone who deserves to be treated well, well.
Then why are you moaning about how it's unfair that you've not got a girl yet? If you were truly self confident, you'd realise that they just didn't find you attractive (in terms of both personality and looks) but that doesn't mean they don't value you and no one will?
As I said, self-pity.
Original post by Anonymous
I've got a reputation for being a 'Nice Guy' as in, I joke around, treat people well, make sure everyones alright and generally be respectful. For example, theres one girl in our year (I'm in Y11) and she's incredibly pretty, but, the others guys only comment on her backside and plenty of times, she's had to inform teachers of harassment. I treat her like a sister, whenever she feels the slightest ill, I'll help her and I treat her well. To the others guys, this is flirting and it pisses me off, I'll admit, she's very pretty and kind. But I don't feel that attraction for her.
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
There's nothing wrong with being a "nice guy", (same with being caring or whatever) it depends. Some people are genuinely "nice" and some people just fake it because they think it'll make everyone like them.
Just don't let it overshadow you. I know a lovely guy who spends so much time making sure everyone else is okay, that I think sometimes, he just forgets about himself.
Also, I think it depends on your other traits. If a guy has nothing going for him but the fact that he's a nice person, the chances are people aren't gonna be as interested in him as they are in a guy who's say... nice and funny, confident, etc.
That being said, I'd rather a "nice guy" than a complete ****, or someone who's being fake and acting how he thinks people want him to.
Original post by Anonymous Coward
This is all quite dependant on how 'attractive' you are.
No it's not. People that use the "oh im not attractive enough" excuse are simply blaming their failure on the other persons perception of attractiveness.
If you have the skills, personality and confidence you can get any girl.
A girl can initially not find you that attractive but when she gets to know you, your personality and you demonstrate confidence, not being a pushover and such then she'll find you attractive as ****.
If you're being nice to her purely because she's attractive and you want to **** her then she'll sense it and know it. To women this is just as bad as being a dickhead as to her you're only being nice to her because she looks good and thus you'll either get used or she'll just tell you to **** off.
stop using excuses like "oh boohoo, genetics made me unattractive oh woeisme." and improve yourself as a person. If a girl you like is basing her responses to you based on physical attractiveness even after a great amount of time then she's missed out on having a good time with you. You tried to get her, she said no. She missed out. You tried, that's what matter.
Original post by Knighted
No it's not. People that use the "oh im not attractive enough" excuse are simply blaming their failure on the other persons perception of attractiveness.
If you have the skills, personality and confidence you can get any girl.
A girl can initially not find you that attractive but when she gets to know you, your personality and you demonstrate confidence, not being a pushover and such then she'll find you attractive as ****.
If you're being nice to her purely because she's attractive and you want to **** her then she'll sense it and know it. To women this is just as bad as being a dickhead as to her you're only being nice to her because she looks good and thus you'll either get used or she'll just tell you to **** off.
stop using excuses like "oh boohoo, genetics made me unattractive oh woeisme." and improve yourself as a person. If a girl you like is basing her responses to you based on physical attractiveness even after a great amount of time then she's missed out on having a good time with you. You tried to get her, she said no. She missed out. You tried, that's what matter.
If you have the skills, personality and confidence you can get any girl.
A girl can initially not find you that attractive but when she gets to know you, your personality and you demonstrate confidence, not being a pushover and such then she'll find you attractive as ****.
If you're being nice to her purely because she's attractive and you want to **** her then she'll sense it and know it. To women this is just as bad as being a dickhead as to her you're only being nice to her because she looks good and thus you'll either get used or she'll just tell you to **** off.
stop using excuses like "oh boohoo, genetics made me unattractive oh woeisme." and improve yourself as a person. If a girl you like is basing her responses to you based on physical attractiveness even after a great amount of time then she's missed out on having a good time with you. You tried to get her, she said no. She missed out. You tried, that's what matter.
Umm. I wasn't 'using excuses' for anything. I made one statement, so how you've managed to ascertain that I blame genetics for anything - I don't know.
As for the bit in bold - What a load of crap.
'skills'? Dear Lord.
The rest of it is just waffle, and doesn't relate at all to what I said anyway.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Knighted
No it's not. People that use the "oh im not attractive enough" excuse are simply blaming their failure on the other persons perception of attractiveness.
If you have the skills, personality and confidence you can get any girl.
A girl can initially not find you that attractive but when she gets to know you, your personality and you demonstrate confidence, not being a pushover and such then she'll find you attractive as ****.
If you're being nice to her purely because she's attractive and you want to **** her then she'll sense it and know it. To women this is just as bad as being a dickhead as to her you're only being nice to her because she looks good and thus you'll either get used or she'll just tell you to **** off.
stop using excuses like "oh boohoo, genetics made me unattractive oh woeisme." and improve yourself as a person. If a girl you like is basing her responses to you based on physical attractiveness even after a great amount of time then she's missed out on having a good time with you. You tried to get her, she said no. She missed out. You tried, that's what matter.
If you have the skills, personality and confidence you can get any girl.
A girl can initially not find you that attractive but when she gets to know you, your personality and you demonstrate confidence, not being a pushover and such then she'll find you attractive as ****.
If you're being nice to her purely because she's attractive and you want to **** her then she'll sense it and know it. To women this is just as bad as being a dickhead as to her you're only being nice to her because she looks good and thus you'll either get used or she'll just tell you to **** off.
stop using excuses like "oh boohoo, genetics made me unattractive oh woeisme." and improve yourself as a person. If a girl you like is basing her responses to you based on physical attractiveness even after a great amount of time then she's missed out on having a good time with you. You tried to get her, she said no. She missed out. You tried, that's what matter.
Stop it.Original post by Anonymous
I've got a reputation for being a 'Nice Guy' as in, I joke around, treat people well, make sure everyones alright and generally be respectful. For example, theres one girl in our year (I'm in Y11) and she's incredibly pretty, but, the others guys only comment on her backside and plenty of times, she's had to inform teachers of harassment. I treat her like a sister, whenever she feels the slightest ill, I'll help her and I treat her well. To the others guys, this is flirting and it pisses me off, I'll admit, she's very pretty and kind. But I don't feel that attraction for her.
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
I've also been told that, I'm 'Too kind' as in, I care for others so much, and relationships won't work out for me. Just a short time back, I was chasing someone and it turned out they were seeing someone else. Things happened, taunts were made and I pretty much ended up on the outside. I think being 'nice' is ok, I mean, really? Am I meant to be a sexist pig or something? I don't fake being nice. Hell, I still joke around, taunt others and have fun. I'm not a bully. Just a nice person, but everyone warns me that i shouldn't be so caring of others. Another friend also said to me: If I was to get with you, it would be marriage, not a fling. Because people like you are for the long-term.
Compliment or what?
You sound good as you are kid. Don't be a misogynist jerk. Nice guys finish first. Be proud that you're a nice guy.
My only advice would be, just make sure that as you get a bit older, if you do find a girl you are attracted to, don't be afraid to let her know.
There is nothing more gentlemanly and nice that you can do for a girl than give her a good hard ****ing, if that is what she wants.
Original post by Anonymous Coward
Umm. I wasn't 'using excuses' for anything. I made one statement, so how you've managed to ascertain that I blame genetics for anything - I don't know.
As for the bit in bold - What a load of crap.
'skills'? Dear Lord.
The rest of it is just waffle, and doesn't relate at all to what I said anyway.
As for the bit in bold - What a load of crap.
'skills'? Dear Lord.
The rest of it is just waffle, and doesn't relate at all to what I said anyway.
Fair play, I have no interest in arguing with you.
If you feel that some failed interactions with women are based on how attractive you are or how she has perceived your attractiveness then that's just how you are.
Hope you have good luck not getting with the all lovely ladies because you aren't confident that your looks aren't good enough because that's all your statement really implied in the first place. You just simply aren't confident with how attractive you are compared to her and THAT is unattractive.
I agree the fair rest is probably a bit of waffle as I'm terribly hungover today and currently having to listen to my twatty, posh, up his arse coworker talk about estonian politics so I apologize.
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