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Should strip clubs be banned?
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Should strip clubs be banned?
Many people think strip clubs are misogynistic and should be banned. I just want to share my two cents.
Why are strip clubs considered misogynistic? I never hear feminists complaining about gay strip clubs. Are gays degrading their own demographic by going to a gay strip club? No of course they aren't. The very act of suggesting that strip clubs are demeaning to women is actually helping to propagate the idea of there being a divide between men and women, simply by perceiving that it exists. Social divides based on genetic differences are actually one of the few things that do diminish when you stop thinking about them (by which I mean, if a white guy and a black guy meet and all they can think about is the fact they're different colours, then there will naturally be a divide between them. If they forget about it and don't think about it, there won't).
Many feminists complain that strip clubs are degrading to women because there's far more clubs aimed at men than their are women or gays. They seem to think this is due to a patriarchal society. This is just wrong. There will generally only exist as much supply as their is demand. Clearly more men want to see people dancing around in the nude than women do, or there simply would be the same amount of strip clubs for women. This is probably because men have more testosterone coursing through them than women. If you're a woman who disagrees with this, start going to strip clubs with male dancers to create more of a demand for them.
Another argument (one put forward by the Icelandic PM after she banned strip clubs) is that stripping is exploiting women by selling them as commodities. This argument stinks of naivety. First of all, using the term 'exploit' in this context is using it as nothing more than rhetoric. Exploit can simply be defined as to "make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)". Therefore, everything in the living world can be argued to exploit something. A bee exploits a plant's pollen. Love can be seen as two people exploiting the happiness they get from one another.
Secondly, if you think that strippers are treated like commodities any more than people in any other jobs, you're very naive. I don't see people saying football is misandristic, despite the fact its a predominantly male sport where players are sold to different companies based on their ability to kick a ball. Everyone has a monetary worth, a price tag on them. Everyone is bought and sold on the market-place. This isn't something unique to strippers.
Yet another argument against stripping is that it's discriminatory. The job criteria is entirely based on physique and when a stripper gets too old she can no longer work.
Again, this isn't unique to stripping. All jobs discriminate to a lesser or greater degree. If you're blind, you're probably going to find it hard to find any job. If you aren't muscly, youngish, and able bodied, you'll probably find it harder to find employment as a manual laborer or a sportsman. There's nothing unethical about this. The idea that its unethical for a job not to be based on your character is ridiculous.
This brings me onto my last point: one of the main problems people have with stripping is that it objectifies women. By which they mean, men at strip clubs don't consider the dancer's personalities and view them as little more than objects. While I don't entirely agree this is true anyway, I again fail to see a real problem with it if it is true.
How is it a problem? I don't care about the postman's personality, I just want him to deliver my post on time. I don't care about athletes' characters, I just want them to play their sport well. I don't care about actor's personalities, I just want to see them pretend to be someone else well. I don't care about a cashier's actual personality, I just want them act nice and do their job properly. I don't care about the pizza delivery guy's soul, I just want him to bring me pizza and leave promptly. I don't care about a bin man's thoughts and dreams, I just want him to be able pick up my dustbin and chuck the contents into the back of his truck.
And all these things are considered to be fine. But paying to just see someones body is considered wrong. This seems like cognitive dissonance to me.
So there we go. Sorry its a long post. I'll be interested to hear people's thoughts.
Why are strip clubs considered misogynistic? I never hear feminists complaining about gay strip clubs. Are gays degrading their own demographic by going to a gay strip club? No of course they aren't. The very act of suggesting that strip clubs are demeaning to women is actually helping to propagate the idea of there being a divide between men and women, simply by perceiving that it exists. Social divides based on genetic differences are actually one of the few things that do diminish when you stop thinking about them (by which I mean, if a white guy and a black guy meet and all they can think about is the fact they're different colours, then there will naturally be a divide between them. If they forget about it and don't think about it, there won't).
Many feminists complain that strip clubs are degrading to women because there's far more clubs aimed at men than their are women or gays. They seem to think this is due to a patriarchal society. This is just wrong. There will generally only exist as much supply as their is demand. Clearly more men want to see people dancing around in the nude than women do, or there simply would be the same amount of strip clubs for women. This is probably because men have more testosterone coursing through them than women. If you're a woman who disagrees with this, start going to strip clubs with male dancers to create more of a demand for them.
Another argument (one put forward by the Icelandic PM after she banned strip clubs) is that stripping is exploiting women by selling them as commodities. This argument stinks of naivety. First of all, using the term 'exploit' in this context is using it as nothing more than rhetoric. Exploit can simply be defined as to "make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)". Therefore, everything in the living world can be argued to exploit something. A bee exploits a plant's pollen. Love can be seen as two people exploiting the happiness they get from one another.
Secondly, if you think that strippers are treated like commodities any more than people in any other jobs, you're very naive. I don't see people saying football is misandristic, despite the fact its a predominantly male sport where players are sold to different companies based on their ability to kick a ball. Everyone has a monetary worth, a price tag on them. Everyone is bought and sold on the market-place. This isn't something unique to strippers.
Yet another argument against stripping is that it's discriminatory. The job criteria is entirely based on physique and when a stripper gets too old she can no longer work.
Again, this isn't unique to stripping. All jobs discriminate to a lesser or greater degree. If you're blind, you're probably going to find it hard to find any job. If you aren't muscly, youngish, and able bodied, you'll probably find it harder to find employment as a manual laborer or a sportsman. There's nothing unethical about this. The idea that its unethical for a job not to be based on your character is ridiculous.
This brings me onto my last point: one of the main problems people have with stripping is that it objectifies women. By which they mean, men at strip clubs don't consider the dancer's personalities and view them as little more than objects. While I don't entirely agree this is true anyway, I again fail to see a real problem with it if it is true.
How is it a problem? I don't care about the postman's personality, I just want him to deliver my post on time. I don't care about athletes' characters, I just want them to play their sport well. I don't care about actor's personalities, I just want to see them pretend to be someone else well. I don't care about a cashier's actual personality, I just want them act nice and do their job properly. I don't care about the pizza delivery guy's soul, I just want him to bring me pizza and leave promptly. I don't care about a bin man's thoughts and dreams, I just want him to be able pick up my dustbin and chuck the contents into the back of his truck.
And all these things are considered to be fine. But paying to just see someones body is considered wrong. This seems like cognitive dissonance to me.
So there we go. Sorry its a long post. I'll be interested to hear people's thoughts.
(edited 10 years ago)
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No they should not be. I've never been to one and i'm not interested in going but there are those that are and there are women happy to work in them.
Let's face it, they're essentially places men and women go to appreciate the visual appearance of other men and women's bodies. There's nothing sexual about it, it's not like people go there and start masturbating in the corner, you're just sitting watching people take their clothes off.
Let's face it, they're essentially places men and women go to appreciate the visual appearance of other men and women's bodies. There's nothing sexual about it, it's not like people go there and start masturbating in the corner, you're just sitting watching people take their clothes off.
Meh. The strippers are being paid for their work. Everyone's consenting. No-one's being hurt. So why's anyone complaining?
No. I don't have an issue with it, everyone's there willingly
Original post by MrKappa
I think strip clubs are fine. I also think page 3 is fine. Feminists gonna feminist.
The main argument against Page 3 is that it is easily accessible to underage kids, who are protected from seeing similar images from every other source. Also, it is considered to not suit its context/environment, i.e. a source of news.
Strip clubs definitely should not be banned as it is a lucrative business which helps all those involved.
I hate the mentality that "banning" everything to save us from ourselves is going to "help us" (it's so condescending that a government would somehow "know" exactly what is best for us when they're adults in the same way everybody else is) - "banning" drugs never stops us, for example - banning strip clubs will probably just drive the industry underground or it will cause innocent adults to go to prison for non-violent acts which I have moral objections towards. instead of banning things, people should be educated or persuaded against them if their decisions of engaging with strip clubs don't actually hurt people
would I wrong in thinking that we as a society are (relatively) too closed with regards to sex?
for example, I used to go to belgium a lot as a child and usually when I turned on the television over there I'd see naked women all the time on morning tv (I'm actually not kidding) and it didn't inspire me to rape women or think worse of them as a gender
- if children see the natural bodies of a particular gender (e.g. page 3) I honestly don't see it as "harmful" - maybe I'm weird, who knows
Original post by KingKumar
The main argument against Page 3 is that it is easily accessible to underage kids, who are protected from seeing similar images from every other source. Also, it is considered to not suit its context/environment, i.e. a source of news.
Strip clubs definitely should not be banned as it is a lucrative business which helps all those involved.
Strip clubs definitely should not be banned as it is a lucrative business which helps all those involved.
would I wrong in thinking that we as a society are (relatively) too closed with regards to sex?
for example, I used to go to belgium a lot as a child and usually when I turned on the television over there I'd see naked women all the time on morning tv (I'm actually not kidding) and it didn't inspire me to rape women or think worse of them as a gender
- if children see the natural bodies of a particular gender (e.g. page 3) I honestly don't see it as "harmful" - maybe I'm weird, who knows(edited 10 years ago)
Why ban it? It's pathetic. Don't like it? Don't work there. Don't pay to visit there.
It's not as if someone who relies on stripping, prostitution etc is suddenly going to be better off financially on the basis of banning it. It just means they have no job any more.
There was a documentary about some strippers in Aberdeen. Some decided to quit and move away from it. There was nothing forcing them to remain there.
Page 3 is a unique case. It's a newspaper but it has topless women in.
I personally couldn't give a toss if they stop that because I don't read the sun anyway. It's not as if without page 3 the Sun will become a quality publication anyway.
I can understand that it's put with normal newspapers on a newspaper wrack, yet has porn after a page turn.
It's not as if someone who relies on stripping, prostitution etc is suddenly going to be better off financially on the basis of banning it. It just means they have no job any more.
There was a documentary about some strippers in Aberdeen. Some decided to quit and move away from it. There was nothing forcing them to remain there.
Original post by KingKumar
The main argument against Page 3 is that it is easily accessible to underage kids, who are protected from seeing similar images from every other source. Also, it is considered to not suit its context/environment, i.e. a source of news.
Page 3 is a unique case. It's a newspaper but it has topless women in.
I personally couldn't give a toss if they stop that because I don't read the sun anyway. It's not as if without page 3 the Sun will become a quality publication anyway.
I can understand that it's put with normal newspapers on a newspaper wrack, yet has porn after a page turn.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Sunny_Smiles
would I wrong in thinking that we as a society are (relatively) too closed with regards to sex?
for example, I used to go to belgium a lot as a child and usually when I turned on the television over there I'd see naked women all the time (I'm actually not kidding) and it didn't inspire me to rape women or think worse of them as a gender - if children see the natural bodies of a particular gender (e.g. page 3) I honestly don't see it as "harmful" - maybe I'm weird, who knows
would I wrong in thinking that we as a society are (relatively) too closed with regards to sex?
for example, I used to go to belgium a lot as a child and usually when I turned on the television over there I'd see naked women all the time (I'm actually not kidding) and it didn't inspire me to rape women or think worse of them as a gender
- if children see the natural bodies of a particular gender (e.g. page 3) I honestly don't see it as "harmful" - maybe I'm weird, who knowsMy point was mainly based on the lack of consistency where it is illegal and protested against for children to see similar images on the internet and in movies but not in a wide-spread newspaper.
I agree with that it is not harmful but then what is the argument behind why public nudity is disallowed?
Original post by KingKumar
My point was mainly based on the lack of consistency where it is illegal and protested against for children to see similar images on the internet and in movies but not in a wide-spread newspaper.
I agree with that it is not harmful but then what is the argument behind why public nudity is disallowed?
I agree with that it is not harmful but then what is the argument behind why public nudity is disallowed?
oh right, well in that case maybe we should as a society go in the direction of "more sexual openness" opposed to "less sexual openness" by not banning it
and in my opinion public nudity shouldn't be illegal - again I went to nude beaches when I was a kid all the time when I went to france (although I didn't strip off my clothes and neither did my family) but a lot of people did and it had absolutely no bad effect upon me or my childhoodI don't see why people would want them to be banned...it's not exactly prostitution.
Original post by KingKumar
The main argument against Page 3 is that it is easily accessible to underage kids,
when it comes to Google where there are millions of boobs and more on view.
Original post by Sunny_Smiles
oh right, well in that case maybe we should as a society go in the direction of "more sexual openness" opposed to "less sexual openness" by not banning it and in my opinion public nudity shouldn't be illegal - again I went to nude beaches when I was a kid all the time when I went to france (although I didn't strip off my clothes and neither did my family) but a lot of people did and it had absolutely no bad effect upon me or my childhood
and in my opinion public nudity shouldn't be illegal - again I went to nude beaches when I was a kid all the time when I went to france (although I didn't strip off my clothes and neither did my family) but a lot of people did and it had absolutely no bad effect upon me or my childhoodI'd go so far as to argue that kids not being exposed to the naked body is bad for them. The idea that the naked body is something to be so ashamed of that it shouldn't be seen is obviously damaging to a child's psyche.
Additionally, sexual repression is one of the most dangerous evils in the world.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
No. I don't have an issue with it, everyone's there willingly
Are you sure? Maybe high-end ones but there are definitely shady clubs that boast under-aged girls and some illegal immigrants and from there it's not a stretch to imagine the sex trafficking.
Original post by KingBradly
How is it a problem? I don't care about the postman's personality, I just want him to deliver my post on time. I don't care about athletes' characters, I just want them to play their sport well. I don't care about actor's personalities, I just want to see them pretend to be someone else well. I don't care about a cashier's actual personality, I just want them act nice and do their job properly. I don't care about the pizza delivery guy's soul, I just want him to bring me pizza and leave promptly. I don't care about a bin man's thoughts and dreams, I just want him to be able pick up my dustbin and chuck the contents into the back of his truck.
How is it a problem? I don't care about the postman's personality, I just want him to deliver my post on time. I don't care about athletes' characters, I just want them to play their sport well. I don't care about actor's personalities, I just want to see them pretend to be someone else well. I don't care about a cashier's actual personality, I just want them act nice and do their job properly. I don't care about the pizza delivery guy's soul, I just want him to bring me pizza and leave promptly. I don't care about a bin man's thoughts and dreams, I just want him to be able pick up my dustbin and chuck the contents into the back of his truck.
This is potentially the dumbest straw man I've ever read on TSR and that's saying something, bud.
None of those professions are comparable to a young girl writhing on a pole atop a stage overlooking perverts touching themselves and none of those jobs have illicit business occurring behind the scenes either.
I just don't get it!! How can people think that there's nothing wrong with going to strip clubs? Honestly it doesn't make any sense. Especially the ritual of a guy going to a strip club with his buddies and getting a few lap dances on his last night of freedom before getting married. So....the point of this would be for the guy who is in a COMMITTED relationship to have one last little "fling" before he gets married to the one he loves forever and ever?? That just seems SO DISGUSTING to me...am I the only person who thinks this?? How gross is it that your guy is going to look at these perfect women and then come home and want to sleep with YOU, while he thinks of her?? Can we say EWWWWW?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Red one
Are you sure? Maybe high-end ones but there are definitely shady clubs that boast under-aged girls and some illegal immigrants and from there it's not a stretch to imagine the sex trafficking.
None of those professions are comparable to a young girl writhing on a pole atop a stage overlooking perverts touching themselves and none of those jobs have illicit business occurring behind the scenes either.
I just don't get it!! How can people think that there's nothing wrong with going to strip clubs? Honestly it doesn't make any sense. Especially the ritual of a guy going to a strip club with his buddies and getting a few lap dances on his last night of freedom before getting married. So....the point of this would be for the guy who is in a COMMITTED relationship to have one last little "fling" before he gets married to the one he loves forever and ever?? That just seems SO DISGUSTING to me...am I the only person who thinks this?? How gross is it that your guy is going to look at these perfect women and then come home and want to sleep with YOU, while he thinks of her?? Can we say EWWWWW?
None of those professions are comparable to a young girl writhing on a pole atop a stage overlooking perverts touching themselves and none of those jobs have illicit business occurring behind the scenes either.
I just don't get it!! How can people think that there's nothing wrong with going to strip clubs? Honestly it doesn't make any sense. Especially the ritual of a guy going to a strip club with his buddies and getting a few lap dances on his last night of freedom before getting married. So....the point of this would be for the guy who is in a COMMITTED relationship to have one last little "fling" before he gets married to the one he loves forever and ever?? That just seems SO DISGUSTING to me...am I the only person who thinks this?? How gross is it that your guy is going to look at these perfect women and then come home and want to sleep with YOU, while he thinks of her?? Can we say EWWWWW?
But they are banned.
I assume you've never been to one? You aren't allowed to touch yourself.
It's just a bit of fun. You're taking a jokey tradition way too seriously. And trust me, the women in them aren't "perfect", just regular, mainly young, mainly attractive women. Honestly, they weren't more attractive than my girlfriend.
Original post by Red one
Are you sure? Maybe high-end ones but there are definitely shady clubs that boast under-aged girls and some illegal immigrants and from there it's not a stretch to imagine the sex trafficking.
Obviously those kind should be illegal, and I think they are, but regular strip clubs, while horribly tacky, shouldn't be banned
Original post by Red one
Are you sure? Maybe high-end ones but there are definitely shady clubs that boast under-aged girls and some illegal immigrants and from there it's not a stretch to imagine the sex trafficking.
This is potentially the dumbest straw man I've ever read on TSR and that's saying something, bud.
None of those professions are comparable to a young girl writhing on a pole atop a stage overlooking perverts touching themselves and none of those jobs have illicit business occurring behind the scenes either.
I just don't get it!! How can people think that there's nothing wrong with going to strip clubs? Honestly it doesn't make any sense. Especially the ritual of a guy going to a strip club with his buddies and getting a few lap dances on his last night of freedom before getting married. So....the point of this would be for the guy who is in a COMMITTED relationship to have one last little "fling" before he gets married to the one he loves forever and ever?? That just seems SO DISGUSTING to me...am I the only person who thinks this?? How gross is it that your guy is going to look at these perfect women and then come home and want to sleep with YOU, while he thinks of her?? Can we say EWWWWW?
This is potentially the dumbest straw man I've ever read on TSR and that's saying something, bud.
None of those professions are comparable to a young girl writhing on a pole atop a stage overlooking perverts touching themselves and none of those jobs have illicit business occurring behind the scenes either.
I just don't get it!! How can people think that there's nothing wrong with going to strip clubs? Honestly it doesn't make any sense. Especially the ritual of a guy going to a strip club with his buddies and getting a few lap dances on his last night of freedom before getting married. So....the point of this would be for the guy who is in a COMMITTED relationship to have one last little "fling" before he gets married to the one he loves forever and ever?? That just seems SO DISGUSTING to me...am I the only person who thinks this?? How gross is it that your guy is going to look at these perfect women and then come home and want to sleep with YOU, while he thinks of her?? Can we say EWWWWW?
To summarize, your argument seems to be 'I think its icky, so therefore it is immoral.' By this logic, I guess I should consider homosexuality to be immoral because the idea of putting my penis in a man's anus makes me go 'eww'.
On a side note, I don't go to strip clubs. But my girlfriend is bi and she goes to them with a lesbian friend of her's occasionally. Do you have a problem with that?
PS I don't think you know what a straw-man argument is.
No strip clubs are great and I frequent them often. Please don't take away one of my favourite things to do. Why go to a normal pub or club for a drink when you can go to a strip club and have a nice scotch whisky and see some attractive women?
I'm glad they closed the strip club near where I live. I feel that the whole thing is just belittling for women.
Banning things arbitrarily because we don't like them is not a good road to go down.
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