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Why is the maths level taught in UK/US so low?

Especially in the US but the UK doesn't seem that much better. I mean the SAT stuff I've seen was something a 5th grader from other countries would breeze through. And still you have plenty who tell stories about hard it is? They wouldn't get past 5th grade in many countries where kids are taught hardcore ****.

So what's the reason? To make everyone feel better about themselves? Everyone gets a medal? To get half the population into college even though most have no place being there?

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I think it is because not enough is expected of pupils. People are put in comprehensive schools and therefore are not required to perform any better than, say, the second-from-last quartile. It is the lower and upper quartiles that suffer, one because they're not intelligent enough to learn even basic arithmetic (although this need not apply to a huge number of people), and the other because they are of course held back by the modal average. What makes things worse is that ability is obviously positively skewed, which is to say that the mean ability is stretched way above the mode, since some small number of people are brilliant, far better than average. What this means is that creativity and intelligence from the brightest students is actually stifled, which is terrible and creates a kind of aristocratic social stratification where only wealthy private school pupils are allowed to fulfil their potential. This is an unfree system.

The answer is to place people in different schools depending on ability. It is more humane on everyone.
Because half the population has no need for a maths skill above that of a 5th graders. Hence, there is little to no point teaching complex maths.
Reply 3
Original post by felamaslen
I think it is because not enough is expected of pupils. People are put in comprehensive schools and therefore are not required to perform any better than, say, the second-from-last quartile. It is the lower and upper quartiles that suffer, one because they're not intelligent enough to learn even basic arithmetic (although this need not apply to a huge number of people), and the other because they are of course held back by the modal average. What makes things worse is that ability is obviously positively skewed, which is to say that the mean ability is stretched way above the mode, since some small number of people are brilliant, far better than average. What this means is that creativity and intelligence from the brightest students is actually stifled, which is terrible and creates a kind of aristocratic social stratification where only wealthy private school pupils are allowed to fulfil their potential. This is an unfree system.

The answer is to place people in different schools depending on ability. It is more humane on everyone.


I agree but can you see this in a modern, western, ''you can be anything you want to be'' , blank slate world ? In this documentary on IQ being genetic or not, people at a dog show were scared to say which breeds are smarter so they wouldn't offend the other owners. And that's just dogs.
Reply 4
The math part of an SAT test is very basic and easy, but it just is a bit tricky.

By this I mean that SAT does not test your knowledge of Maths but rather your reasoning so you don't need to know much more than very basic maths.

I do however agree that altogether the expected level of Maths is rather low for both countries.
Original post by jamieTT
I mean the SAT stuff I've seen was something a 5th grader from other countries would breeze through.


Just for the record, which "other countries" are you referring to? Providing examples would help in comparison.




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(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by jamieTT
Especially in the US but the UK doesn't seem that much better. I mean the SAT stuff I've seen was something a 5th grader from other countries would breeze through. And still you have plenty who tell stories about hard it is? They wouldn't get past 5th grade in many countries where kids are taught hardcore ****.

So what's the reason? To make everyone feel better about themselves? Everyone gets a medal? To get half the population into college even though most have no place being there?


AP classes are there for those that are able.
Original post by jamieTT
I agree but can you see this in a modern, western, ''you can be anything you want to be'' , blank slate world ? In this documentary on IQ being genetic or not, people at a dog show were scared to say which breeds are smarter so they wouldn't offend the other owners. And that's just dogs.


Well you can only "be anything you want to be" if you are free to pursue your potential, and for that you need a decent education.

Clearly, some people are smarter than others. If people don't want to believe that, they are welcome to think otherwise, but have no right to push this delusional ideology onto other people.
Original post by Joel R
I've been in state school education all my life (got 98% Maths/Further Maths), and I have no idea what an AP class is. :smile: Just saying, whatever they are, they're not available to everyone, and that perhaps represents a problem.


AP classes are in American schools


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Reply 9
Original post by teenhorrorstory
AP classes are in American schools


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Ah. Deleted, thanks. :P
Original post by Joel R
I've been in state school education all my life (got 98% Maths/Further Maths), and I have no idea what an AP class is. :smile: Just saying, whatever they are, they're not available to everyone, and that perhaps represents a problem.


AP classes are extra lessons that people do in grade 11-12. They do it because it gives them college credit, varies from 4-8 credit(48 credits a year).

I do have to say that AP classes aren't that common in public school. But in most private schools AP classes are mandatory.

The things taught in AP are the introductory courses of a 4 year US college, but we skip those in the UK because our A-levels are the same as their year on classes.
Reply 11
Original post by jamieTT
Especially in the US but the UK doesn't seem that much better. I mean the SAT stuff I've seen was something a 5th grader from other countries would breeze through. And still you have plenty who tell stories about hard it is? They wouldn't get past 5th grade in many countries where kids are taught hardcore ****.

So what's the reason? To make everyone feel better about themselves? Everyone gets a medal? To get half the population into college even though most have no place being there?


I wouldn't say the maths taught in the US is any easier than that taught in the UK. AP Calculus BC (American equivalent of a level maths) constitutes of approximately the same level of calculus as A level further maths. Don't base your opinion on SAT maths as it's extremely easy.
Reply 12
Judging by my school, I'd guess the teachers aren't clever enough to teach it. We didn't even have an A Level maths teacher where I went.
Reply 13
Original post by jamieTT
Especially in the US but the UK doesn't seem that much better. I mean the SAT stuff I've seen was something a 5th grader from other countries would breeze through. And still you have plenty who tell stories about hard it is? They wouldn't get past 5th grade in many countries where kids are taught hardcore ****.

So what's the reason? To make everyone feel better about themselves? Everyone gets a medal? To get half the population into college even though most have no place being there?


You can totally take A level further math, trust me it has lots of concepts not taught even in east asian countries high schools, eg. Calculus of trigs at a higher level

*let alone further additional math

Obviously these are optional but then it shows there are options for the most able





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(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 14
Original post by Sidhant Shivram
Especially in the US but the UK doesn't seem that much better.

Just for the record, which "other countries" are you referring to? Providing examples would help in comparison.




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I'm romanian so that and also other countries from talking to people (east Asia, Germany, etc). I assume Russia also has a high level. I'll find the RO 2013 baccalaureate and post it here. I posted it on a mostly US forum and they said very few students would even know what those things meant, never mind solve them.


Original post by xDave-
Judging by my school, I'd guess the teachers aren't clever enough to teach it. We didn't even have an A Level maths teacher where I went.




Up to 60 Shanghai maths teachers are to be brought to England to raise standards, in an exchange arranged by the Department for Education.



http://www.bbc.com/news/education-26533428

As for other issues related to the maths expectations:

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-20712312


A quarter of adults in some parts of England have maths skills below those of nine-year-olds, a study has revealed.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294249/Graduates-lack-basic-skills-interested-job-offer-employer.html


Half of companies said university leavers struggle with basic English and nearly two-fifths claim they cannot do simple maths.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10690366/Economic-recovery-threatened-by-poor-maths-skills.html


Economic recovery 'threatened by poor maths skills'
Millions of adults encouraged to sit online maths assessment as research shows a third of over-18s struggle to weigh and measure ingredients and calculate change in shops


This affects both individuals and society.
Mainly perceptions of maths. People hear from their parents all the time about how horrible the subject is. There's just no passion for it amongst pupils, so when they aren't interested they switch off and standards fall.
AEA, STEP and the UKMT do a lot to rectify this for the brightest. I've never met anyone too bright for the IMO team.

I agree the level of maths taught at GCSE is low. And there is too much indulgence by teachers and parents of the notion that maths is boring. It is at that level - so is learning to spell. You just get a textbook and do it, because it's a crucial skill.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 17


OK so this is the romanian BAC, taken at the end of high school (12th grade). You have to pass this to get into any uni.
Reply 18
Original post by jamieTT


OK so this is the romanian BAC, taken at the end of high school (12th grade). You have to pass this to get into any uni.


all of this is taught in A level Maths.
I'll go against the majority maths lot of tsr.

Most people don't use much more than basic maths in real life anyway, so what does it matter if you do "complex" maths? You are basing this model on the Chinese who work more than 12 hours a day.
Not everyone wants to rot indoors all day answering maths questions, some of us have lives, so stop trying to push your agenda onto everyone.

Want to do hardcore maths? Go take extra classes, and quit complaining.

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