Free movement of Labour - EU

Poll

Should free movement of labour within the European Union be retained?

We constantly hear about immigration and proposals to reduce it however i don't think we've ever had a poll on TSR regarding support or opposition to free movement of Labour within the EU.

I personally support free movement of labour however i would prevent further EU expansion in terms of states being allowed free movement of labour until they are much wealthier.

Scroll to see replies

Reply 1

Cryptographic

I would prefer some controls. e.g. Degree (Higher education) or having a permanent job offer before immigrants from the EU can settle. Or on the other hand, allow free movement, but until they contribute x amount in direct taxes they aren't allowed any benefits (and possibly NHS)

Reply 2

MatureStudent36

You're a bugger Rakas. Free movement of labour is a tricky one. On one hand I agree with it. On others I don't.

It can be surprisingly good for an economy if you're not at the bottom and in demand. So from a management position, I love it as its a source of readily available skilled workforce. I never said cheap, but skilled. Prior to the crash, I was working in manufacturing. Put bluntly, the influx of polish workers provided a welcome talent pool of highly motivated workers that got the job done. Prior to that we were left recruiting from the sick, the lame and the lazy. When in a down turn and staff layoffs I recommended sacking all of outlet local workforce and keeping the poles, I wasn't too popular, but it was what was best for te company.

The down side is social coherence. People come and then people go. Migrants can improve the general fabric of society, but mass influxes can damage it. The key is if the migrants assimilate. If they're only here for a short time then they don't need to and although they may pay taxes, the strain on infrastructure for a short term gain in the economy can be damaging. It's like being hungry and gorging yourself on food.

I guess I'm in favour of sustainable movement of labour in order to build up a community spirit.

Do you not feel though that migration of labour can cream off the best talent and hold developing country's, regions back?

Reply 3

Rakas21

Original post by MatureStudent36

Yes it can however free movement of labour is very much a capitalist principle and i support countries competing for the best and brightest. Ultimately, if both the UK and the immigrants will have a better life here then i'm prepared to sacrifice another countries future wealth.

Plus, while we do need wealthy markets to buy the type of stuff we make that can be achieved over time anyway by the normal processes of trade. Poland has still become much wealthier than it was despite losing a large segment of its labour force even if it may have accrued wealth faster had it kept or even imported labour.

Reply 4

MatureStudent36

Original post by Rakas21

Ever read global shift by Dickenson?

Reply 5

Falcatas

I have no personally have no problems with open borders.

However I find it unfair that we discriminate against immigrants based on nationality.
If we must discriminate, doing on the basis of skill level is more fair than based on where they come from.

Reply 6

Rakas21

Original post by Falcatas

The best way to discriminate is by wealth which at a national level correlates well with skills and education. To this end we should have preferential labour agreements with all countries that have a GDP per capita above $30k.

Reply 7

Falcatas

Original post by Rakas21

That isn't enough as there are still many poorer people in those countries, plus it still discriminates partially based on nationality.

We should treat all potential migrants as humans first not citizens from certain countries.

Reply 8

chrisawhitmore

No. Removing the ability to control a key economic factor is a bad idea.

Reply 9

Falcatas

It is also worth noting that many arguments for open borders rest on the fact we live in a free market state. We don't as we have things like the welfare state and minimum wages.

Reply 10

michaelhaych

The economic divide between eastern and western Europe is too large for unrestricted free movement of people to work.

Reply 11

yourFuture

Original post by Rakas21

You forget to mention that most people who have this sort of opinion also support keeping benefits and the minimum wage low. Lower wages and less state benefits certainly isn't going to attract the best and brightest.

Reply 12

Cryptographic

Original post by yourFuture

*facepalm* I certainly hope that the best and the brightest won't be reliant on the minimum wage or benefits.

Reply 13

Joeman560

A nation without borders is no nation at all. Then again, maybe that's the point.

Reply 14

yourFuture

Original post by Cryptographic

*facepalm* I certainly hope that the best and the brightest won't be reliant on the minimum wage or benefits.

The best and brightest from dirt poor ex soviet states will.

Reply 15

Cryptographic

Are you implying that the best and brightest from ex-soviet states would be to stupid and unqualified to be employable.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 16

chrisawhitmore

Original post by yourFuture

On benefits, it might, as the 'best and brightest' will be less concerned with whether they can afford sky TV and a smoking habit on the dole, and more concerned with how high taxes are. The more you spend on benefits, the higher your tax rate needs to be, the harder it is to attract the best and brightest through higher salaries.

Reply 17

chrisawhitmore

Original post by yourFuture

The best and brightest from dirt poor ex soviet states will.

If that is the case, (I don't think it is) then it's better for all concerned that they don't come to the UK. I'd much rather they be the best and brightest in their own country where they can make a difference and improve the situation than come to the UK and live on minimum wage doing a menial job.

Reply 18

MatureStudent36

Original post by chrisawhitmore

If you look at how migrants generally work, they'll come to a country to do the menial jobs and then work themselves up the ladder. Something that the local workforce seem to fail to comprehend in many cases.

Watching a programme a few months back and they interviewed a polish agricultural worker who came to the UK a few years back to pick vegetables. Three years later he's a foreman, bought a house and achieved what many on TSR think is impossible. Social mobility and a sustainable form of living.

Nothing new though. Indian immigrants came over to work in the factories, and as a community they've strived and prospered.

They fill a gap.

Reply 19

Alfissti

Original post by Rakas21

I agree with the concept of free movement of labour though generally as a whole my businesses rarely ever hire foreign labour, I'm quite happy and proud that my farms, hotels and real estate development businesses in Norway, Iceland and Sweden as a whole has less than 5% non-native labour and those who are not native generally are from neighbouring Nordic countries only. End of the day people who come through the doors of my hotels in Norway are delighted that they are being served by a Norwegian rather than someone from the EEA. It doesn't cost me any more in my staffing bills to have a 100% Norwegian workforce, in reality it actually cost me less as productivity is high and they come to me already fairly well trained, people from Norway love it that they come to a hotel where someone speaks to them in their own language and people from abroad are happy I haven't skimped on them by using cheaper foreign labour. Is this racist? I don't really give a damn whether you think it is or not as end of the day it is highly profitable for me to keep such practices. I won't shed much of a tear if Norway and other Nordic countries opted to pull out of the EEA and form their own trading bloc as end of the day if I rather pay more to a Norwegian than less to a Pole to do the same job regardless of how good that Pole may be. There really isn't much of a secret to it, I simply find good managers who know how to provide good motivation and training, I pay a good wage and I give my employees a good working environment, thus I've not lost a single employee in Norway, Sweden or Iceland since I started being in this business.

Sadly I have to admit the same strategy has not worked all that well for me in UK, we did start by adopting a UK nationals first policy (unspoken though) for our farms and hotel. I generally don't really care all that much about anything beyond economics and taxation when it comes to UK, therefore issues that people are passionate about while I may be passionate about it in Norway I generally don't care about it in UK as for me I simply use UK as a place to make money and hopefully lots of it and nothing more.

Alas sad to say today the farm is now run 100% by Polish workers with 1 British farm manager who simply put it to me that if we were to remain in business especially where we pay a good wage then we could only sustain by having non-British workers. The hotel also started out with 17 of the 20 workers being British, today only 1 of the 29 is from Britain. Believe it or not in the last 22 months in operation we had taken on 38 British workers to fill up various roles and today only 1 remains much to the ire of the PM who happens to be the MP for the area. I will throw 3 eggs on his head if ever he told me I was not doing enough to hire British workers or wasn't giving young British people a chance for employment. Free movement of labour in UK is a wonderful thing and I for one am fully utilizing this as otherwise my businesses would be haemorrhaging money. Today I have 5 managers, 1 each from Austria, France, Sweden and Switzerland and only 1 is a Brit, a retired Major who is in charge of the gardens, lawns and facilities maintenance. 18 of the 38 that we let go were let go by him as he simply put were useless. Our chef from Austria let go 5 of those and told us he was leaving if he couldn't bring his own team in, we let him and he brought in 4 Polish, 1 Austrian and a German.

I don't think it ever was a money issue, we only pay NMW during training after which we pay £7.80 minimum per hour for 36 hours per week and since we had 24/7 operations most other than the managers could choose the hours they wanted to work. We offered pretty good benefits too, free meal of which they could have anything off our lunch menu and 1 drink, nothing that we won't have served our customers. Also had on-site housing for those who needed or wanted it. Unfortunately 90% of the Brits who were let go were let go due to no-show, tardiness and dishonesty. Sad to say UK won't have a functioning economy if it wasn't for EU migrant labour.