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Do you consider UKIP good or bad?

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Good luck stopping UKIP.
They'll get the highest proportion of votes in the EU election and by the 2020, maybe the General Election.
I can see it now. Destruction of the socialist state, skilled immigration, gun rights reinstated and a large increase in defence spending.
Godspeed.
Original post by geokinkladze

The people who say UKIP is the politics of fear are being misleading (and it may well be unintentional). All political parties pull at the heartstrings.. for example those parties who say we would have no human rights if we left the EU, or we would become a nation of xenophobic isolationists. Whereas it simply means our laws would be made by a British parliament and implemented by British courts.


I don't see any difference in a French or British or German or European court defending or implementing human rights. But I also don't see why I go on reading this kind of threads, so it is all likely my own fault.
Original post by MickIAC


Why they're bad: Just look at their manifesto! They are racist and they are taking advantage of it whilst the country is in the pan. I don't think UKIP will ever be as successful as the Nazi Party in elections, but there's a correlation between the two that when unemployment is high, they do well.


Yeah support for extremist parties always increases in times of economic hardship. People see that the main parties aren't doing anything for them and so they look elsewhere. It also helps that UKIP, like the Nazi party, use scapegoats. They seem to think that all of the country's problems will be solved by stopping immigration.
Original post by VladThe1mpaler
Yeah support for extremist parties always increases in times of economic hardship. People see that the main parties aren't doing anything for them and so they look elsewhere. It also helps that UKIP, like the Nazi party, use scapegoats. They seem to think that all of the country's problems will be solved by stopping immigration.


This.
Great. They've brought life back into British politics and whilst them gaining 100% power would be absurd and arguably a disaster, the fact they are a presence gaining support is great. They've shook up politics and are the only real anti European party which of course offers choice.

UKIP are forcing the hand of the political elite on a lot of issues and ensuring that they are spoken about and not just left until later once we've voted a party in again, at which point they go back on their pre-election promises.

UKIP, whilst having some very questionable policies, just like some of the other parties, have been great for British politics and only an oppressor of freedom of speech would disagree.

In an ideal world I'd vote socialist but that's not going to happen because of the capitalist nature of society and the modern world. The ideal scenario for me is UKIP to win the European Elections and the Conservatives to win the 2015 General Election. I cant bring myself to vote Labour purely on the basis that Ed Miliband is a complete clown who is a product of a society that overemphasises academia and not enough of real world experience and I wouldn't trust him running a lemonade stand let alone a country.

A Conservative/UKIP coalition, whilst unlikely, would be perfect as the Conservatives would still have the majority say to stop any silly UKIP policies being put in place but UKIP would have a presence and could continuously bring up the issue on Europe and ensure that the referendum does go ahead.

In short, they've been great for British politics. Also, the fact they offer an alternative vote is great too as the more options the better and as someone who is purely for free speech no matter what then that is what I believe.

Also, a lot of the people in this thread do not actually understand UKIP policy as the amount of misinformation being spread is absurd.
Original post by polscistudent88
Where ->
Original post by geokinkladze
T"Unilateral isolationism?" don't make me laugh.
.


Just a simple request is all :wink: otherwise I would have done the appropriate smiley or used that LOL thing, I'm sure.

Original post by polscistudent88
Well, it then goes both ways.


I'll reserve judgement for the time being. The economic argument that trading with low wage economies reduces domestic wages is a one sided look at a two sided coin. The other side being it also drastically reduces domestic general prices, but you forgot to mention that bit because either, in my opinion:

1) You didn't know
2) It didn't benefit your point of view
3) You don't agree
Original post by Snagprophet
That's like saying they voted against the EU ban on ivory because they want ivory, even though this country already bans ivory. They want our own human rights bill and not one which favours those who don't respect human rights, like criminals.


So what do people do when the government starts screwing them over? With the ECHR we all have somewhere to turn if our own government won't act. It's all well and good saying that you don't like it when you aren't currently having to use it.
Original post by polscistudent88
I don't see any difference in a French or British or German or European court defending or implementing human rights.


Thank You. We finally got there. You are exactly what the Pro-EU campaign is all about.
Original post by james22
So what do people do when the government starts screwing them over? With the ECHR we all have somewhere to turn if our own government won't act. It's all well and good saying that you don't like it when you aren't currently having to use it.


I guess we did what we did before the ECHR, we voted out our government and put in a new one. Plus we have our own, or do you think we need the protection of other countries?
UKIP are one of them parties which have never been tried before so it is harder to completely degrade them to a ignorant friend as they can simply lay blame on all these external sources (Immigration, europe) and also the parties that have already been elected (Labour, Conservatives and partly libdems) so we could call UKIP the 4th party who simply can play the blame game as they haven't had any power to **** up with (yet they most definitely would).

Understand that UKIP rely on fear for their votes, fear that immigration is causing us economic tragedies and how europe is sucking our resources and we'd be better alone. People hear this and believe it because they simply want answers to the issues and it is very easy to blame it on an external source.

This is also similarly to how the Nazis got elected (Jews, Communism)

Although I don't think UKIP are quite on par with Nazi's their policies will degrade Britain to a nationalist state which will corrupt the minds of the uneducated and ignorant.
Original post by geokinkladze

I'll reserve judgement for the time being. The economic argument that trading with low wage economies reduces domestic wages is a one sided look at a two sided coin. The other side being it also drastically reduces domestic general prices, but you forgot to mention that bit because either, in my opinion:

1) You didn't know
2) It didn't benefit your point of view
3) You don't agree


I know, but I think it is a tricky one (and that's why I did not mention it). There are a lot of issues when looking at that:
1. Quality. You indeed get cheaper goods, but quality is usually poorer (and this might be sometimes risky, especially for certain types of products). The problem is, when low-skilled wages go down due to the influx of those goods, those workers can indeed buy cheaper goods but (with the downturn pressures) they do get stuck in very poor quality products.
2. Downturn pressures are not always precisely parallel to the influx of cheap goods. With this, I mean that that an entire industry can see the wages go down, but the spectrum of cheap goods coming from other countries can only regard a definite number of product-categories. Let me explain this better. If you import very cheap clothing, low-skilled workers in the industry will experience down-turn pressures in the advanced economy. However, there is no guarantee that the advanced economy will buy enough categories of cheap goods not to alter the real budget constraint of the workers. I hope I put it in an understandable way.
3. Environmental protection regulations.
4. Effects on government functions?...
I mean, there are a lot of issues. Not to say that I am against international trade (I really defend it and I would see favorably negotiations between the EU and other countries). What I am trying to say is that the idea that the downturn pressures that may be - ? - a result of EU low-skilled immigration will magically disappear controlling immigration and trading outside the EU is, to say the least, controversial and problematic.
I'm quite neutral towards UKIP (although I'm personally pro-EU). I just find it completely bizarre how popular they seem to be - Nigel Farage contradicts himself all the time, I don't know how he has quite so much support.
Original post by redferry
Most of the roads are half finished, loads of the infrastructure is half finished, there is resentment against them among farmers for taking their land and using it as their own. So much of it just gets abandoned halfway through and very little of it trickles down into the economy.

I can only speak for Kenya, Zimbabwe and Madagascar but that is the way it is there.


Kenya and Madagascar not so much, but in Zimbabwe there's a lot going on. For example the Hydro-Electric Dams are old but the Chinese are updating and extending them, and I was told the train network is going to be brought up to date via the Chinese. Zimbabwe has a lot of old stuff that needs repairing/replacing. I'm personally very optimistic for the future of Africa if technological progress is something to be optimistic about.
Original post by Pindar
He said 29 million people from Romania and Bulgaria had the right to come to the UK, and many are planning to. He came under fire because in total there's 28.6 million in those two countries. So he rounded up 0.4 million.

No, he at the very least implied that many people were planning or intending to come, which, even if he manipulated his words to avoid blatant lies (which I dont believe he did) is scare tactics trying to gain voters who are not intelligent enough to see that that wont happen

Original post by Pindar
What his words were, the party is against forcing religious institutions to marry persons if it goes against their religious ethical code, but would support it if that was not made the case.

It's the oldest liberal principle not to allow one persons right over the expense of another persons. In this case, religious rights over the right of homosexuals to marry.

I wont argue with you on this one, I haven't read too much about his views although I don't personally think that many homosexual people would have a strong desire to be married by an institution which thinks they are sinners?

Original post by Pindar
Because trade agreements are negotiated by foreigners on our behalf, they're rarely beneficial to our economics position and industries. We're quite different from a lot of countries in Europe.

There is no reason why the UK can't negotiate trade agreements itself, there really isn't any superior bargaining chip to letting the EU countries negotiate trade for you.

I agree, we are a globalised society and should remain so. But does that extend to wanting a centralised world state, forgetting ideas such as 'national sovereignty' and having little say over our own affairs?

well we have representatives in europe, unfortunately many of them (particularly UKIP) don't fancy turning up, if they did their job better we'd have much more say

and you can say we can get all the same stuff without being in the EU but I sincerely doubt we can just leave and have absolutely nothing change, the EU has served us well and the amount we spend on it may be high but it is nothing compared to the overall government budget

aside from having 'little say' over own affairs (see above) what negatives will being more globalised and joined with other nations bring?

Original post by Pindar
It's already happened, as we already have massive strain on our public services because of immigration.


A study at UCL found that EU immigrants paid 34% more in taxes than they claimed, non EU paid 2% more so they are not putting a strain on public services, there is a strain because A. British people claim more than they pay 11% more, we have been in a recession, the number of people who are obese, elderly etc are increasing and they cost the NHS a hell of a lot
Original post by geokinkladze
Kenya and Madagascar not so much, but in Zimbabwe there's a lot going on. For example the Hydro-Electric Dams are old but the Chinese are updating and extending them, and I was told the train network is going to be brought up to date via the Chinese. Zimbabwe has a lot of old stuff that needs repairing/replacing. I'm personally very optimistic for the future of Africa if technological progress is something to be optimistic about.


What about global warming though? It's the continent that will be worst hit in coming years yet is in the worst economic position to deal with it.
Original post by Chief Wiggum
I'm quite neutral towards UKIP (although I'm personally pro-EU). I just find it completely bizarre how popular they seem to be - Nigel Farage contradicts himself all the time, I don't know how he has quite so much support.

All politicians contradict themselves.
Farage just doesn't hide it as well as the other lizards.
Reply 76
Extremely bad, and made even worse by people listening.
Original post by geokinkladze
Kenya and Madagascar not so much, but in Zimbabwe there's a lot going on. For example the Hydro-Electric Dams are old but the Chinese are updating and extending them, and I was told the train network is going to be brought up to date via the Chinese. Zimbabwe has a lot of old stuff that needs repairing/replacing. I'm personally very optimistic for the future of Africa if technological progress is something to be optimistic about.

It's proven impossible to integrate sub-Saharan Africans into society. Faced with rampant corruption in innumerable internal problems, I just can't see anything changing in the foreseeable future.
Brazil, a country as rich as us is still a cesspit of violence and deprivation. China is similar.
Some countries are going to be bad forever.
UKIP are a bunch of nutters who gain support from closet racists and nationalists who don't have the slightest idea on how to run a country or know about basic economics. They rely on scare tactics and scapegoating to gain their support.

If you have a problem affecting your country? No problem, just blame it on immigrants and the EU. Crime? No problem, the EU did it. Corrupt Politicians? Draw up the invasion plan for Brussels.

I'm not saying the other politicians are good. I'm just saying that the UKIP is worse.

Though I have to admit, their gun policy is by far the best out of anyone out there.
Original post by eyeman567
their policies will degrade Britain to a nationalist state which will corrupt the minds of the uneducated and ignorant.


Interesting choice of words, so what you are saying is that nationalism is a bad thing? That being a proud French, German or British person is a bad thing?

Is it better to be European?

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