God question
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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Yes, I went through a lot of turmoil when I read Paradise Lost and the whole question of "God as the author of sin" arose. He created Satan, Satan sinned.... but everything comes from God.... mind boggling. I should ask my friend, she's a theologian(Original post by Howard)
Or how God defines it. If Godf created a free human spirit that was sinless then I'm sure the "anti-sin program" would be downloaded into the human psyche in accordance with what God considers din. In other words he'd be writing the software.
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(Original post by Speciez99)
so god would cause suffering of an epidemic to make us choose doesnt sound very moral to me. if you dont know and no one does then you should be agnostic
But I'm not.
piginapoke - why do I choose that one? Because I'm human and I need to conjecture in order to understand myself and my situation.
It seems that anyone who believes/speculates gets completely shot down, without mercy, on this forum!
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It's just a theory. I personally think it's more understandable than a lot of others. Until I see another one that could be plausible, I'll retain this one as something to think about.(Original post by piginapoke)
I'm not shooting down, just trying to understand your reasoning. I agree we sometimes need to conjecture, but can't understand currently why you arrive at that particular one. -
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your not agnostic? ok(Original post by blissy)
But I'm not.
what religion do you believe in? (sorry if you have already said) Speaking for myself i would never to try to shoot someone down since to alot of people religion is a key part to their life and i would hate to take any happiness they got from it away from them. However as i go through life i want to ask the question why to as many people as possible and suggest problems with their beliefs so i can at assess whether their beliefs might be true in my own mind. -
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? all the theologians are enthusiastic about describing the painful and eternal consequences of non-compliance. It's the wonderful consequences of compliance that they aren't too good at.(Original post by piginapoke)
The problem I have with this approach is that the consequences of non-compliance are so ethereal and ill-defined, inexplicably so, and a distinct smack of a human origin of the 'laws' and consequences in the first instance.
The problem i have with it is it's vile and absurd claptrap, but otherwise sane and intelligent people spend their time believing it and trying to persuade other people to believe it. -
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I was brought up as a christian, although never forced into anything. I specifically asked my mum "how do you ask Jesus to come into your heart?" We had a bad time with churches so I have felt rather badly towards organised religion. I think it is only the very BAD CHristians who don't question their faith and it's the ones who have been brought up not to question God/Jesus that are the ignorant and ill-informed ones. Many are happy to listen to questions/be questioned and indeed I think questioning is an important part of Christianity - questioning yourself, questioning God etc.(Original post by Speciez99)
your not agnostic? ok
what religion do you believe in? (sorry if you have already said) Speaking for myself i would never to try to shoot someone down since to alot of people religion is a key part to their life and i would hate to take any happiness they got from it away from them. However as i go through life i want to ask the question why to as many people as possible and suggest problems with their beliefs so i can at assess whether their beliefs might be true in my own mind.
When I was a teen I had a lot of trouble with the church and with being a CHristian. I was pretty much the only Christian in my year and was, as a result, subject to much interrogation! I kind-of drifted away from religion during my teens and I'm still trying to tackle fundamental problems with belief and with the church, but I certainly believe in God and in grace, salvation and all the things that come with it. I am still wondering about it all. I read my bible and talk to God but am still unsure about bits and pieces. I still feel uncomfortable in the presence of other CHristians (I had some bad experiences with what I now know were not CHristians in the way God intended) but I'm hoping to change this. I know for a fact that when I was a committed Christian I lived a much less selfish life and was much happier and felt like a completely different person (I know it sounds cliched to say "God changes you totally" but it is SO true).
I am still a bit shaky about all of it, so I'm on a personal route of discovery and I don't know everything and I am human and will probably be wrong a lot of the time. I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but when my aprents took me back to uni we were about 10 miles from my house and I said "WE have to go back, I haven't got my bible!!".
What a ramble, hope you will all be sympathetic! -
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Yes, but as the theory is that god knows whether people are going to choose to love it or not long before they're born, how much choice is there? As well as that, if god wants to be loved, perhaps god ought to behave in a way that'd persuade people to love it.(Original post by blissy)
o I suppose that would be up to God wouldn't it.
o But that's the whole point. He wants people to choose to love him, it's much more satisfying, surely. -
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Take a look at Milton's God by William Empson. Very instructive on Milton and other things too.(Original post by blissy)
Yes, I went through a lot of turmoil when I read Paradise Lost and the whole question of "God as the author of sin" arose. He created Satan, Satan sinned.... but everything comes from God.... mind boggling. I should ask my friend, she's a theologian
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To someone like me, that sounds really silly. I know people don't like hearing "evangelical" things, but I have really experienced some things in my time and God was the source. Please suspend your disbelief (not you personally Weejimmie, everyone), I don't understand completely how people can totally refute God in a similar way. I just don't want this to spiral into a digression about experiences/shrouds/miracles/what-have-you(Original post by Weejimmie)
As well as that, if god wants to be loved, perhaps god ought to behave in a way that'd persuade people to love it.
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It's confusing because God did want CHristians (his people.. hehe) to work together for support, for understanding and for a good "moral" group of people to live with. ALso, the church is supposed to be the "bride of Christ" (how SCARY does that sound?). The only problem is that CHristians are faulty too and so organised religion can easliy be corrupted. It's a shame really. It also bugs me that people sometimes judge God/Jesus on the state of the church and the actions of some Christians.(Original post by piginapoke)
I think we can say that religion is explicity good for some people (like you) as it helps them through life. Surely that's all any belief system should be, a personal guide or psychological method of understanding and source of personal strength. This kind of personal discovery method of religion seems to be the best way forward, as we've seen trying to force the same religion onto sheep-like followers is a source of all manner of troubles; surely the best thing is to make up one's own mind about things (and not be pressured into anything), and then we'll all end up with an understand, each one our own personal version.
Or maybe I'm talking rubbish again. -
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On "free will" so-calledThe concept of free will is, to my mind, a very naive and, at best, simplistic concept, one which totally disregards the existence of the natural subconscious. In essence, the existence of the subconscious mind not only makes things more complicated but actually makes the concept of free will illegitimate. For one to have free will – i.e. a will that is free – one cannot have a genetic nature. This is why, for example, Sartre was forced to reject the idea of ‘human nature’ in order to affirm his philosophy of free choice – if, as Sartre correctly says, we have a nature, how can the will be free from it?
It really is simple common sense. All humans between the ages of 9 to 13 start puberty. Did they use their “free will” to “choose” puberty? Of course not – it’s genetically predetermined. In a similar fashion most – perhaps all – of our thoughts are not authored by our conscious selfs or wills but, rather, are the end product of a long chain of processes in the subconscious. Thoughts and feelings arise autonomously regardless of our will. Close your eyes for a few minutes. Try not to think. You will soon find thoughts coming to and fro totally independently of your will to not think.
The concept of free will, as Nietzsche correctly noted, started in Christianity, in the fourth century by the Church Fathers, to justify the concept of eternal damnation. God, so they figured, cant hold man responsible for his acts unless he freely choose them, hence the dogma of free will.
Pre-Christian Greek philosophers were at one in saying the will was not totally free. Buddhism, which has the deepest and clearest understanding of the mind out of all the religions of the world, teaches that the self or will was an illusion, that thoughts arise by themselves etc etc. By training the mind we can pacify it, dissolving the illusions and realising the true nature of the mind. Free will – the will at one with the whole body – therefore is what we can aim for, but not what we are born with. -
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But part of "free will" is choosing not to be subject to bestial nature. We aren't FREE from nature, but our free will allows us to choose not to be dominated by nature, in the way that animals are.(Original post by Sanctus)
The concept of free will is, to my mind, a very naive and, at best, simplistic concept, one which totally disregards the existence of the natural subconscious. In essence, the existence of the subconscious mind not only makes things more complicated but actually makes the concept of free will illegitimate. For one to have free will – i.e. a will that is free – one cannot have a genetic nature. This is why, for example, Sartre was forced to reject the idea of ‘human nature’ in order to affirm his philosophy of free choice – if, as Sartre correctly says, we have a nature, how can the will be free from it?
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That is my interpretation of that aspect of free will. -
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One who is totally enchained to the animal nature, who knows nothing but it, will not experience a desire to be free from it, to be greater from it.(Original post by blissy)
But part of "free will" is choosing not to be subject to bestial nature. We aren't FREE from nature, but our free will allows us to choose not to be dominated by nature, in the way that animals are.
The desire to change from the lower, animal nature comes from the archetypes, the archetypal patterns for higher behaviour and life, in the collective unconscious.
No kid can desire sexual intercourse until a certain DNA sequence in him is switched on.
Likewise no person can desire a spiritual way of life unless certain archetypes awaken him. -
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We both know full well that pretty much anything to do with religion can be convincingly argued either way. It just boils down to faith and I believe the truth is out there and I'm finding it(Original post by Sanctus)
One who is totally enchained to the animal nature, who knows nothing but it, will not experience a desire to be free from it, to be greater from it. animals
The desire to change from the lower, animal nature comes from the archetypes, the archetypal patterns for higher behaviour and life, in the collective unconscious.
No kid can desire sexual intercourse until a certain DNA sequence in him is switched on.
Likewise no person can desire a spiritual way of life unless certain archetypes awaken him. change "certain archetypes" to God
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Oh, well I don't believe in that mumbo-jumbo(Original post by Sanctus)
Indeed, what the ancients called "gods" in the "unseen world" "inspiring" people below with revelations, we today can call "archetypes" in the "unconscious" "projecting" their contents into consciousness.
<knowingly ironic wink>
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Check out Nietzsche sometime if you havn't already. He had a vision of the Ubermensch, the super-human, that which is greater than man, to replace man.(Original post by piginapoke)
Hence I said usually. I wouldn't consider the ability to do so to be useful in any way however.
Evolution to greater things...that's the "benefit" (as if culture and existence should have a utility to justify their existence!)
