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View Poll Results: Who won the recent Middle Eastern conflict?
Given that the war is not over, a more appropriate question would seem to be "who is winning". At the moment, the answer seems to me to be "nobody", which is bad news for Israel. Nothing less than a win will do for them, whereas Hizbullah only require a draw to qualify for the knockout stages.
Given that the war is not over, a more appropriate question would seem to be "who is winning". At the moment, the answer seems to me to be "nobody", which is bad news for Israel. Nothing less than a win will do for them, whereas Hizbullah only require a draw to qualify for the knockout stages.
We'll probably see who won about a year after this ends. And that will be regardless of how well Israel does militarily. I think Israel will be more than happy to let Hezbollah gloat all it wants as long as gets Lebanese and UN troops at its border and stops Hezbollah from attacking it in the future.
How can we answer that when the war isn't even over? But so far Hezbullah is winning. But sadly, Lebanon as a civilian country is losing. (About 1000 Lebanese dead, mostly children, only about 100 non-civilian. 163 Israeli dead, more than 100 israeli military)
But I'm sure, like hezbullah did 6 years ago they will continue their unfinished victory by having back the lebanese prisoners captured since the invasion of S.Lebanon, and kicking out the israelis from the rest of the lebanese lands.
Militarily, Israel has proven itself superior, and also proven that they are capable of taking firm action. However, Hezbollah has played the media far more adroitly than the Israelis, and the very fact that they are now seen as a party to be involved in the peace settlement, rather than a paramilitary terrorist group, speaks volumes.
I don't think anyone won, in the long run if Hezbollah is disarmed because of their action which started this conflict will then. Israel won, but right now I would call it a draw.
Hezbollah are still competent enough to fire more than 200 rockets, long rage, and short-range everyday. Most important - is that Hezbollah are winning more, and more support in this war as they sustain and resist the Israelis.
One of the strongest armies in the world Vs a small group of fighters;
The most advanced and deadly weapons known to man Vs very primitive weapons;
More than 40000 soldiers Vs around 3000 fighters;
More than 34 days of fighting…
and the result:
No Lebanese towns or villages were occupied by the Israeli army..
The Israeli army failed to arrive at the banks of Al- Litani River, which is only a few kilometers away from the Israeli borders.
Having constantly called for the unconditional release of the two soldiers, the Israelis now accept to negotiate their release and are ready to release all the Lebanese prisoners, including Samir Al- Kintar, in return.
Hundreds of Israeli tanks, a chopper, and two war ships were destroyed.
The most important outcome of this war is the deflation in the eyes of the world of the image of a mighty army boasting its strength and claiming it is unbeatable, whereas in actual fact it failed even to win a battle over a few kilometers, and all it actually did was claim the lives of a thousand innocent civilians.
Can anyone find a statistic for the number of V1s and V2s fired at Britain by the Nazis? I'm not intending to make any comparisons between those launching them (other people will do that readily enough!), I'd just like to see how the campaign against Haifa etc. compares in terms of missiles with the Blitz. This, taken with the numbers of casualties from the city, might give an indication of whether the modern-day Israelis or the 1940s Brits were better prepared for survival.
No Lebanese towns or villages were occupied by the Israeli army..
Actually several were, at least temporarily. Israel now has tens of thousands of troops in Southern Lebanon...
Originally Posted by Evening Star
The Israeli army failed to arrive at the banks of Al- Litani River, which is only a few kilometers away from the Israeli borders.
30km actually. And Israel could push up there were it not for the ceasefire.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Having constantly called for the unconditional release of the two soldiers, the Israelis now accept to negotiate their release and are ready to release all the Lebanese prisoners, including Samir Al- Kintar, in return.
According to who? One of the Israeli demands for ceasefire is the unconditional release of the soldiers, as is contained in Resolution 1701.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Hundreds of Israeli tanks, a chopper, and two war ships were destroyed.
Nowhere near 'hundreds' of tanks. A few were damaged, a few perhaps destroyed. One chopper was downed. One warship was damaged and is ALREADY back in service - so obviously not too badly.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
, whereas in actual fact it failed even to win a battle over a few kilometers, and all it actually did was claim the lives of a thousand innocent civilians.
Israel hasn't failed to win a battle. It now holds large areas of S. Lebanon and a force is going to be deployed to take control from Hezbollah once Israel leave...
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Hizbollah have definitely won.
Considering every single one of your "facts" is either completely false or at least utterly misleading, I wouldn't trust your conclusion.
One of the strongest armies in the world Vs a small group of fighters;
The most advanced and deadly weapons known to man Vs very primitive weapons;
More than 40000 soldiers Vs around 3000 fighters;
More than 34 days of fighting…
and the result:
No Lebanese towns or villages were occupied by the Israeli army..
The Israeli army failed to arrive at the banks of Al- Litani River, which is only a few kilometers away from the Israeli borders.
Having constantly called for the unconditional release of the two soldiers, the Israelis now accept to negotiate their release and are ready to release all the Lebanese prisoners, including Samir Al- Kintar, in return.
Hundreds of Israeli tanks, a chopper, and two war ships were destroyed.
The most important outcome of this war is the deflation in the eyes of the world of the image of a mighty army boasting its strength and claiming it is unbeatable, whereas in actual fact it failed even to win a battle over a few kilometers, and all it actually did was claim the lives of a thousand innocent civilians.
Hizbollah have definitely won.
If Israel was allowed to play by the same rules as Hezbollah, then forget about it, the war would be over in a week. You have two groups waging wars with two different set of rules.
Can anyone find a statistic for the number of V1s and V2s fired at Britain by the Nazis? I'm not intending to make any comparisons between those launching them (other people will do that readily enough!), I'd just like to see how the campaign against Haifa etc. compares in terms of missiles with the Blitz. This, taken with the numbers of casualties from the city, might give an indication of whether the modern-day Israelis or the 1940s Brits were better prepared for survival.
Your WW2 knowledge ain't too hot is it?
"The Blitz" was the name for the German bombing between 1940 and 1941.
V1s and V2s didn't start until 1944.
"Actually several were, at least temporarily. Israel now has tens of thousands of troops in Southern Lebanon..."
Absolutely no towns or villages were under the control of the Israeli army during the battle, only a few hills actually were, and the Israelis have repeatedly failed to even entre any village or town and had to retreat after several attempts at the borders of each one..
"30km actually. And Israel could push up there were it not for the ceasefire."
Israel has actually been trying to push up there since day one of the battle, but has failed, and the river is NOT 30 kilometres from the borders, the distance actually varies from a few kilometres (3 or 4) up to 30, and the Israelis have failed to arrive at the banks which are three kilometres away from their borders.
"According to who? One of the Israeli demands for ceasefire is the unconditional release of the soldiers, as is contained in Resolution 1701."
According to the Israeli Prime Minister who announced today that his government are ready for negotiations on this issue.
"Nowhere near 'hundreds' of tanks. A few were damaged, a few perhaps destroyed. One chopper was downed. One warship was damaged and is ALREADY back in service - so obviously not too badly."
Well a hundred tanks were destroyed at least, and what is important here is not only the number but the fact that Hizbollah is not a regular army nor do they have warplanes and tanks, which makes every tank they destroy a very siginficant achievement.
"Israel hasn't failed to win a battle. It now holds large areas of S. Lebanon and a force is going to be deployed to take control from Hezbollah once Israel leave..."
Once again, winning is not measured by the area the Israelis now hold under their control- 3 or 4 kilometres after a months!- it is the spiritual victory which counts at this stage.
Finally, my facts are not misleading, they are clear as daylight, and anyone can check them from news sites etc, and my conclusion does not need approval from anyone.
Last edited by Evening Star : 14-08-2006 at 22:05.
If Israel was allowed to play by the same rules as Hezbollah, then forget about it, the war would be over in a week. You have two groups waging wars with two different set of rules.
What are the set of rules Hizbollah was playing by?
Absolutely no towns or villages were under the control of the Israeli army during the battle, only a few hills actually were, and the Israelis have repeatedly failed to even entre any village or town and had to retreat after several attempts at the borders of each one..
That's just false. Next.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Israel has actually been trying to push up there since day one of the battle, but has failed
False. Israel began with a mainly aerial campaign. It then expanded to very limited ground incursions with limited numbers of troops. Only a few days ago did the Israeli security cabinet dramatically expand operations.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
, and the Israelis have failed to arrive at the banks which are three kilometres away from their borders.
Because they are pushing up from the main part of the Israeli-Lebanon border, not from the small area that is closer to the River. Israel does not just want to get to the river at one point, it wants to CLEAR the area between Israel and the Litani. Sheesh.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
According to the Israeli Prime Minister who announced today that his government are ready for negotiations on this issue.
That's very different to your last claim. Your last claim was that Israel would buckle and give in to demands including releasing certain prisoners. Now you've backed down to "they said they might negotiate".
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Well a hundred tanks were destroyed at least
Very doubtful. Source? I have shown you were wrong regarding ships, now you are being hugely vague and imprecise about tanks. Thus I question your knowledge of the issue. In fact, I think you're just pulling numbers out of thin air.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
which makes every tank they destroy a very siginficant achievement.
Not really. A tank can be taken out by a well-placed anti-tank missile, many of which can even be fired by infantry. Hezbollah were equipped with many such weapons - hardly an achievement to get some on target.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Once again, winning is not measured by the area the Israelis now hold under their control- 3 or 4 kilometres after a months!- it is the spiritual victory which counts at this stage.
Ah! "Spiritual". So victory is no longer calculated by who actually did better militarily but who FEELS better? Of course.
Originally Posted by Evening Star
Finally, my facts are not misleading, and my conclusion does not need approval from anyone.
They are misleading and factually incorrent much of the time. So your conclusion is crap.
Absolutely no towns or villages were under the control of the Israeli army during the battle, only a few hills actually were, and the Israelis have repeatedly failed to even entre any village or town and had to retreat after several attempts at the borders of each one..
Possibly partly to do with the fact that they didn't use the maximum amount of force, unlike Hezbollah, instead they sent in ground troops which makes the operation a lot more difficult for Israel but results in fewer civilian deaths.
it is the spiritual victory which counts at this stage.
This is my problem with the winning vs losing idea. Hezbollah only needed to not all get killed to "win", whereas Israel had to find 2 soldiers, destroy Hezbollah and preferably not hurt any civilians. Regardless of their relative sizes, clearly this war was going to be won on these terms by Hezbollah from the outset. Israel's aims would have been nigh on impossible for any military force.
What are the set of rules Hizbollah was playing by?
More to the point, what were they not playing by? The answer is, of course, international law. They also seemed to apply no morals to their actions, whereas Israel did. Whether or not you feel Israel was successful in their attempts to do so is largely irrelevant, the fact that they stuck to the legalities of warfare means that their job was yet again made more difficult. Had Israel done what Hezbollah did, and ignored all international law, they could have come near to flattening Lebanon. They could have asked for the US/UK to step in and lend military support. But they didn't, because they recognised that it is unacceptable to risk civilian lives unnecessarily, and although too many Lebanese died, if you consider the whole war and how each side conducted itself, Israel comes out on top, morally.
Debate issues related to the politics of the UK, such as the actions of any MP, any current or potential law, or any other factor affecting the British political system.
Re: Israel vs Hezbollah - Who won?
