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Yorkshire village threaten to riot if Roma are not deal with

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Reply 40
Avatar for studos
studos
3
why roma are always causing trouble wherever they reside?
I have read in the news that France has problems with them too and many other countries.
Original post by studos
why roma are always causing trouble wherever they reside?
I have read in the news that France has problems with them too and many other countries.


Maybe after hundreds of years of persecution and segregation from society, it shouldn't be surprising that they have an "anti-social" culture.
Reply 42
Avatar for studos
studos
3
Original post by DorianGrayism
Maybe after hundreds of years of persecution and segregation from society, it shouldn't be surprising that they have an "anti-social" culture.


oh poor roma, I feel so sorry about them, we should do something about them
we shouldn't allow their prosecution, until they take out all the antisocial reflexes they developed because of us
Original post by studos
oh poor roma, I feel so sorry about them, we should do something about them
we shouldn't allow their prosecution, until they take out all the antisocial reflexes they developed because of us


O.K
Reply 44
Avatar for Ronove
Ronove
18
Original post by DorianGrayism
Maybe after hundreds of years of persecution and segregation from society, it shouldn't be surprising that they have an "anti-social" culture.

Quite.


I hear they poison wells.

/sarcasm
Original post by DorianGrayism
Maybe after hundreds of years of persecution and segregation from society, it shouldn't be surprising that they have an "anti-social" culture.


the Jewish people have experienced these afflictions, yet they are far more law abiding than other citizens of our country.
As someone, who has lived for 18 years in a country full of Roma people, I would love to see what kind of a solution can be found to the issue.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by the bear
the Jewish people have experienced these afflictions, yet they are far more law abiding than other citizens of our country.


Well, the Roma are still experiencing widespread discrimination, especially in Europe.

Many are still placed in special schools which are inferior. Many are still openly discriminated against in public. The Jews no longer experience this.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Observatory
It seems like people are arguing about how reality should be, or how they would prefer it to be, rather than how it is.

One side is saying that Roma are highly criminal while the other is saying that this is a false perception caused by racism. But the criminality or not of Roma is an actual fact that in principle can be observed. So do we actually know the rate of criminality of Roma?

I think we can all agree that not every Roma is a criminal but it is at least conceivable that they are much more criminal than the other residents of this village.


You are conflating two things.

Almost certainly the rate of criminality amongst Roma is greater than that of the prior inhabitants of the area. Moreover if their anti-social behaviour is not greater (and it might be), then it is at least of a different kind and is perceived by the locals as being more anti-social.

However, and this is the point, that does not justify treating the Roma as a group in an inferior manner. That is the essence of racism. We have heard the comments of Hazel Redleaf in the last century about the Jews, the South African blacks, the US Backs, the Aborigines of Australia and the Catholics of Londonderry. It doesn't become any less racist, just because it is a new group.
Original post by c_al
Definition of the meaning of race:

"Starting from the 19th century, the term was often used, in a taxonomic sense, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype."

Gypsy travelers do not fit that definition.


The UN and most governments disagree with you.

Roma gypsies and Irish Travellers are both recognised by and protected by the Race Relations Act, for example.
Original post by nulli tertius
You are conflating two things.

Almost certainly the rate of criminality amongst Roma is greater than that of the prior inhabitants of the area. Moreover if their anti-social behaviour is not greater (and it might be), then it is at least of a different kind and is perceived by the locals as being more anti-social.

However, and this is the point, that does not justify treating the Roma as a group in an inferior manner. That is the essence of racism.

I agree that a higher group average criminality doesn't justify punishing members of that group who are not criminal. It would be wrong, for instance, to convict people of the crime of being Roma, and send them down for life. I do not believe anyone suggested that but out of deference to those who will throw around comparisons to the Holocaust with less than adequate justification, I state plainly that I do not support it either.

I don't agree that introducing a very large, highly criminal group means that everything can simply proceed as before. A highly criminal population requires different policing techniques and a different level of resources than a docile, law abiding population. That means a great expansion in the proportion of the population employed as police officers. That means constant street patrols. That means constant searches for weapons. That means snatch squads in the middle of night to apprehend the leaders of gangs. That probably means arming the police. At the extreme, to police a highly criminal population is to fight an insurgency.

The question then arises whether the presumed benefits of allowing Romanians and Bulgarians free access to the UK is worth this cost, not just in money and quality of life, but in the traditional civil liberties of the native population, which largely have to be abandoned.

We have heard the comments of Hazel Redleaf in the last century about the Jews, the South African blacks, the US Backs, the Aborigines of Australia and the Catholics of Londonderry. It doesn't become any less racist, just because it is a new group.

What evidence is there that any of those groups are more criminal than average? To justly call this racist you have to show that the main objection is to the origin or appearance of the people rather than their behaviour and I do not think that can be sustained. No one is complaining about the huge number of middle class French people who (in my personal experience) have colonised the nicer parts of London, for instance. This is probably because they conduct themselves in a respectful manner.

On the contrary, it seems to me that the Roma are mostly being defended because they are a separate race to the general population, by people who are trying hard not to appear racist, and to make others appear more racist than them. I doubt many of those doing so here would rush to the defence of a working class 'white British' group that behaved in the manner described.
Why are people banging on about racism? I think the issue people have with the romas is more to do with the problems they cause than their "race".
Original post by DorianGrayism
Maybe after hundreds of years of persecution and segregation from society, it shouldn't be surprising that they have an "anti-social" culture.


I don't mean to be disrespectful so please don't take it that way but that's a rather foolish remark to make.
Many people have experienced and still do experience discrimination either as an individual or because of whatever group they are perceived to come from, yet they manage to live good lives.

Did you ever consider that they face discrimination for a reason. Perhaps they earned the distrust of other communities.

They do themselves no favours . Instead of making an effort to show themselves in a better light and prove other peoples perceptions of them to be wrong they instead reinforce people's perceptions. My experiences of Roma have not been good ones unfortunately and it seems other people from across the country are also having difficulties.




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Original post by miscounted_time
I don't mean to be disrespectful so please don't take it that way but that's a rather foolish remark to make.
Many people have experienced and still do experience discrimination either as an individual or because of whatever group they are perceived to come from, yet they manage to live good lives.

Did you ever consider that they face discrimination for a reason. Perhaps they earned the distrust of other communities.

They do themselves no favours . Instead of making an effort to show themselves in a better light and prove other peoples perceptions of them to be wrong they instead reinforce people's perceptions. My experiences of Roma have not been good ones unfortunately and it seems other people from across the country are also having difficulties.


Lol.

My post was looking at their attitudes from a historical/political perspective and you are looking at them from their attitudes from the here and now.

I am not quite sure why both cannot be true.

I understand that the Roma are a nomadic culture that has high levels of criminality and an intolerance to change. This can make the most the Liberal person into an intolerant being.

However, that can only be looked at in the context of hundreds of years of discrimination, ethnic cleansing and segregation from mainstream European society. Continuing that system with inferior segregated schools or kicking out millions of Roma and shoving them from country to country is not going solve the issue.

I wouldn't be able to understand Jewish attitudes to foreign policy without understanding their history, so the same should apply to the Roma.
Original post by Skip_Snip
X


Lol

Antiziganism. The last form of acceptable racism.

Would you say this about any other ethnic minority? Obviously not……Actually…maybe you would.

A) Well, actually, yes. They are forced from place to place in many cases and they are forced to enter into segregated schools. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

B) Yes, it would easy to say, well if they had normal lives and blah blah blah. However, they do not.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Skip_Snip
Why are people banging on about racism?.


Parlty because of comments like:

Original post by Skip_Snip
If they lived normal lives they wouldn't be "discriminated" against.


And other comments which were along the lines of "Roma are like the plague" "all Roma are criminals" etc.
Original post by DorianGrayism

A) Well, actually, yes. They are forced from place to place in many cases and they are forced to enter into segregated schools. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

If they got jobs and hoses, they wouldn't be forced into segregated anything.

Original post by InnerTemple
And other comments which were along the lines of "Roma are like the plague" "all Roma are criminals" etc.

Have you ever lived near them?
Original post by Skip_Snip

Have you ever lived near them?


:facepalm:

Already discussed this.

That, and it has no relevance to what I said to you at all.
Original post by Skip_Snip
If they got jobs and hoses, they wouldn't be forced into segregated anything.


Have you ever lived near them?


Well, that is what you say.

I am not quite sure how you can expect them to get jobs or houses when you place them in inferior schools or when the Children are not even forced to go to school.

It is the same logic that was used to subjugate black people in South Africa and the United States. They are not going to have jobs when they have no education.
Original post by DorianGrayism

It is the same logic that was used to subjugate black people in South Africa and the United States. They are not going to have jobs when they have no education.


Yes, it was, wasn't it. They managed to sort themselves out.

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