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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by bertstare
Israel continues to build settlements in the West Bank, violating plenty of international laws in the process. Your position is basically this: Let Israel do whatever the **** they want, even if it furthers the decades-long oppression of the Palestinian people and colonization of their land, and when they naturally retaliate, label them as terrorists and aggressors. And make sure you bomb a few schools and hospitals full of civilians just for good measure


Answer the question instead of telling me what my stance is. I do not for one second think that Israel is an innocent party in this and I see it as choosing the lesser of two evils, but the reality is that Hamas is obsessed with killing Jews and this killing will continue regardless of Israel's actions.

How is peace possible when one side refuses to accept the existence of the other side and won't stop killing until they are removed?
Original post by Acidy
Those who are ignorant to the justification of Israel's attacks have had the wool pulled over their eyes. It's quite a relief to be one of the minority to see both sides of an argument.


I agree. It's a relief to see that's there's another individual out there who is able to take a step back and think objectively about the situation.


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**** YOU.
Original post by Et Tu, Brute?
Hitler defeated and then allies create Jewish State in a densely populated region where the main religion is Islam...great ****ing idea!


And therein lies the problem: Islam.
Original post by pane123
but the reality is that Hamas is obsessed with killing Jews and this killing will continue regardless of Israel's actions.


Yeah just listen to whatever the American media tells you, you will go far
Original post by h3isenberg
Jeremy Bowen (BBC middle east editor) saw no evidence of Hamas using Palestinian civilians as human shields when he was there for a week. I'll let you read the article:

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human


Ah ye i saw that guy on bbc news reporting from gaza, seems he tells it how it is.
Original post by Samia95
Your point is?


Well, my point is that if your reason for supporting Palestine is that they are Muslims and so are you, then that's sort of tantamount to saying that your support for them is an accident of birth or circumstance, isn't it?

If your reason for supporting Palestine is an arbitrary one like that, then it becomes somewhat difficult for you to then castigate others for supporting Israel, whether they have a good motivation for their views or indeed if they themselves have some arbitrary reason for doing so.

As an aside, I'm a bit surprised that you seem to sort of go along with the suggestion that you're exhibiting tribal tendencies...
Original post by bertstare
Yeah just listen to whatever the American media tells you, you will go far


Why not answer the question instead of regurgitating the same "believe the media" nonsense everyone comes out with? Am I unaware of some totally unbiased news source that most TSR members seem to be privy to?
Original post by pane123
Why not answer the question instead of regurgitating the same "believe the media" nonsense everyone comes out with? Am I unaware of some totally unbiased news source that most TSR members seem to be privy to?


Answer what question? The aggressors are Israel, always have been. Therefore, it's not surprising Hamas are retaliating, even though they are far from perfect themselves. There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest Hamas wants all Jews dead or whatever bile you just spewed
Original post by pane123
And therein lies the problem: Islam.


Madagascar would have been ideal.

However to blame the violence on a religious ideology is unfair. For starters, the majority of the people being killed are not extremists. However those growing up without their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers etc because they were all killed by Israel, almost certainly will be a radical by the time the reach adulthood...and to be honest I don't think anyone can blame them for wanting to avenge their whole family being wiped out.

Basically what I am saying is yes, there are extremists in every society, and Islam is no different. However whenever Israel tars the entire ethnic group with one brush, goes in and bombs everyone, they are only radicalizing the Palestinian population. And that is without mentioning the young Arabs in the likes of Iraq, Iran etc who will being seeing their Muslim counterparts being massacred by what they see as a western funded foreign invader who shouldn't be there.

You'll probably not believe that, and I don't really care. But you only have to look at Northern Ireland to see that it is exactly what has, will and is currently happening. An oppressed mass of people, a group of extremists who have little support and a perceived foreign body with heavy handed tactics. End result, years of unnecessary bloodshed.
Original post by bertstare
There isn't a shred of evidence to suggest Hamas wants all Jews dead or whatever bile you just spewed


The Charter of Hamas provides a lot more than a shred.
Can I just drop this here

Original post by pane123
The Charter of Hamas provides a lot more than a shred.


"In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons.[6]"

Nope, still not seeing evidence that they are going to kill all Jews when they have a chance. Seems like, as mentioned, they are just resisting an obviously oppressive and criminal state which has killed countless civilians in a matter of weeks. I'd be pretty pissed too
Original post by TurboCretin
Well, my point is that if your reason for supporting Palestine is that they are Muslims and so are you, then that's sort of tantamount to saying that your support for them is an accident of birth or circumstance, isn't it?

If your reason for supporting Palestine is an arbitrary one like that, then it becomes somewhat difficult for you to then castigate others for supporting Israel, whether they have a good motivation for their views or indeed if they themselves have some arbitrary reason for doing so.

As an aside, I'm a bit surprised that you seem to sort of go along with the suggestion that you're exhibiting tribal tendencies...


Maybe another reason why I am for the Palestinians is because innocent people are being massacred while the world looks idly on? How many Israeli civilians have been killed?? Please don't try to act as if conflict is balanced when it's far from it. You only just have to see the death toll to know that it clearly isn't.
Original post by ssingh9
I tend not to get involved in these kind of debates, but I love how anyone who wants to find out more or is even remotely looking like they're considering putting themselves in Israel's mindset for a second is shot down as a troll, anti-Muslim, etc. Is it not wiser to consider evidence and make reasoned arguments than blurting out stuff like "Stop bull****ting"? Forcing your opinion on others who haven't done the research to consider it critically is morally bankrupt.


Most sensible thing I've read so far. Unfortunately people get too emotionally involved instead of taking a step back, considering the facts the facts and examining the situation through the point of view of both parties involved. Admittedly, in such situations it can be a difficult thing to do however it is exactly what needs to be done.

So kudos to you


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(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by bertstare
"In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons.[6]"

Nope, still not seeing evidence that they are going to kill all Jews when they have a chance. Seems like, as mentioned, they are just resisting an obviously oppressive and criminal state which has killed countless civilians in a matter of weeks. I'd be pretty pissed too


It's 14 years old. Look, I can copy and paste from Wikipedia, too:

"However many remain sceptical of Hamas's new stance, and view it as a ploy to hide its true agenda."
Original post by miscounted_time
Most sensible thing I've read so far. Unfortunately people get too emotionally involved instead of taking a step back, considering the facts the facts and examining the situation through the point of view of both parties involved. Admittedly, in such situations it can be a difficult thing to do however it is exactly what needs to be done.

So kudos to you


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Are you okay?? Too emotionally involved?? Your talking about genocide?? With a conflict of this scale you people are deluding yourselves in thinking people can emotionally detach themselves from it.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Hamas are the aggressors. "Palestine" has been offered the two state agreement on numerous occasions, once with 94% of their demands and they rejected for war on Israel, so who are the terrorists?

When 3 nations gang up on you like 1967 and talk about destroying Israel, we clearly know who the aggressors are. I wish the Israeli's well and no loss of innocent human life.
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Hectic
Original post by Pinzgauer
This is excellent, well worth watching.



Ah the typical apologist response. Nothing is excellent about the video you have linked. It's a pretty poor attempt at moving goalposts.
Original post by Pinzgauer
Can I just drop this here


I guess killing Gazans brings the stats down huh

I'd like to see how this stat was compiled because over 40% of Gaza has been invaded by Israelis, so the Gazans are crammed in to the remaining portion. 'Officially' and reality are two different things when it comes to Gaza and where the borders lie

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