should university be free but harder to get into?

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There should be a wider range of courses and routes available IMO

Someone who scores less than 50% in an exam should not be continuing to study that subject

People with a C at GCSE should not be taking A Levels in that subject

People with less than a C at A Level should not be continuing with a degree in that subject

BUT

There should be a wider range of qualifications - ones that students and employers understand

If Btec courses were more rigorous in their approach and OND/HND courses were re-established as serious options - or apprenticeships were designed to ensure proper progression - then there would be no need for everyone to feel a degree was the only way to go

On the other hand - I have no issue with there being degrees in anything that a person wants to study

I think that the cost of a degree to the student should be in inverse proportion to the usefulness of the degree to the country/economy/etc

Reply 21

Damien_Dalgaard

Original post by Clip

The point is - it shouldn't be. A-levels should be of such a standard that an average student gets CCC and a good student gets ABB. AAA should only be possible for absolutely exceptional students. Maybe one or two per year group.

Troll is obvious OBVIOUS TROLL

Then who gets the A*s, I take from all this that you are not currently doing A Levels lmao

Reply 22

Clip

Original post by TenOfThem

What do you mean by "average" student

Do you mean
>a student with average ability considering the full spectrum
>or do you mean the average A Level student
>or do you mean the average ability of a student who is actually capable of taking a serious A level course

The average A level student.

The average student is obviously not going to be failing, but neither are they going to be absolutely top teir. Ideally, there should be only very very few students who fail their A-levels. After all, what would the point be of GCSE otherwise?

Once at VI Form, if you accept that nearly everyone is going to be looking to go to university, then the average student going to read an average course at an average university should be scoring in the BBB-CCC range.

I'm not talking about reading Business at Westminster. I mean for Leicester, Bristol, Birmingham, Newcastle - that's the range you should have to be in. If you want to go absolutely top tier, then AAA might be asked for. If you get CCD or below, that's where the ex-Polys come in.

Otherwise, what exactly is the point of A-levels if there are only two grades (A and everything else)?

Reply 23

Clip

Original post by Damien_Dalgaard

Troll is obvious OBVIOUS TROLL

Then who gets the A*s, I take from all this that you are not currently doing A Levels lmao

No one gets A*. It's pointless and symptomatic of the failure of A levels over the last 20 years.

Reply 24

tengentoppa

I think it should be minimum ABB. If you can't get that then you'd be better off learning a trade or doing an apprentice ships. I think a plumber or a welder is much more valuable than someone who's done an events management course from Leeds Met.

I don't think paying for it is an issue though, although I wouldn't mind if they were less steep. University is a financial investment and it should be up to you and not the taxpayer to fund that. It's thanks in part to fess that UK universities are excellent relative to most other European countries.

Reply 25

nulli tertius

The permanent, plaintive cry of TSR:

Please, please stop other people going to university so that they can work and subsidise me

Reply 26

Huskaris

Original post by Clip

What you mean is - can we please have a time machine back to 1985?

A levels much harder. O levels much harder. Standard offers BBB-BCC. No fees. Actually got given free money.

Students still complained.

Tougher exam requirements, more work at school, actually having to be intelligent to go to university, thank god Gove is gone!

Reply 27

Zenomorph

Yes and split it back into the universities and polys.

* waits for the liberal left wing snakes who try to disguise themselves as the voice of the ' reasonable' right to jump in and do the very obvious - oppose vehemently *

NNNNYYYYHHAA !!!

Read 'em like a book

Reply 28

Ruffiio

I feel bad to be honest because my university course required me to get BCC (history and politics) non stem think of it as you will, but to the point,

I got BBB so I clearly surpass the grade requirements for the course by 2 grades.. every other (non russel group) university in my immediate area requires a maximum of 280 UCAS points (BBC) to study on my course so even then I surpass all the non russell group university entry requirements for my course in my immediate area.

Then comes the problem,

The 2 russel group universities which I do live next to, Liverpool and Manchester require AAA-AAB for my course with an A grade in my chosen subject.. therefore clearly I am no where near those entry requirements.. This leaves me feeling disappointed in myself because I feel like I'm studying at a university which is a load of crap because the entry requirements are low and I feel like I could have done much better surpassing the grade requirements as stated above, but at the same I'm nowhere near capable of studying at institutions like Liverpool or Manchester.. essentially I'm stuck in the middle with nowhere else to go so I've had to deliberately lower my expectations.

Reply 29

username402722

Yes, providing it is genuinely on ability not on the old boys network or similar, which seemed to be the case in the past from what I can make out.

It would provoke an interesting debate and a lot of pressure groups to 'save our course' were the numbers of university students to be cut.

Reply 30

Clip

Original post by Ruffiio

I don't understand why you would be disappointed in yourself if you have met your own targets and you have said yourself that you are not capable of higher.

Reply 31

nulli tertius

Original post by Zenomorph

Yes and split it back into the universities and polys.

Explain to me how going back to the day when Middlesex Poly had the largest philosophy faculty in the country will help anything.

Reply 32

Pro Crastination

I am of the position that if you can't get BCC/BBC or above, you really should be questioning whether extending your time in full-time education is going to be something you'll enjoy and get the most out of. It might be a generalisation, but one does often hear about people on these types of grades heading off to uni because they don't have any other ideas of what to do with their life. The issue is, until we have proper, quality apprenticeship programmes (at least level 3 if not level 4 - NO BARRISTA TYPE apprenticeships) like Germany, we're going to have to keep supporting ex-polys.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 33

S1elyak1

Original post by CasualSoul

Even if you're not applying for a course which is super academic there should still be testing which goes beyond getting the grades and writing a very good personal statement.

There are, for my course I had to send in a portfolio of work as well as a written piece of work to do with it. Drama students also need to prepare a monologue for their audition so it's not easy for people in the arts to get into, you need to show through the required work that you're dedicated to the subject.

Reply 34

Damien_Dalgaard

Original post by TenOfThem

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't grades awarded cumatively meaning that there needs to be a certain amount of students getting let's say an E at A Level.

Reply 35

iloveteddy14

But no one wants to be sitting in dead end up once they have finished a levels, I know that if I did that i would be extremely depressed and less motivated and everything will become mundane boring. But I know I can both, I can be a Uni student doom psychology and I can have a job part time.
I know that if I got a job doing admin, retail or cafe and my prospects were never gonna change I wouldn't stay there for that long or I will see myself in ten years still wiping tables, stacking shelves or sitting in some grotty office.

Nightworld1066

Reply 36

TenOfThem

Original post by Damien_Dalgaard

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't grades awarded cumatively meaning that there needs to be a certain amount of students getting let's say an E at A Level.

Are you asking if A Level grading is Norm Referenced

If so, no

Reply 37

iloveteddy14

But what do you call joke degrees? To me a degree is a degree, it shoes maturity, commitment, stamina, motivation, being an adult, setting deadlines being independent. Plus all the usual abilities you develop academically, logic, reasoning, interpreting, knowledge, putting skills into practice.

To me a degree should be something you want and really want., something that makes you smile, get up the morning, something gives that sense of excitement and good stress.
Something you can achieve

Nightworld1066

Reply 38

Pro Crastination

Original post by iloveteddy14

Higher education isn't an automatic ticket to an escape from these types of careers. People need to recognise that. If you aren't going to put the effort in - and let's be honest, people on CCC and below aren't putting enough in - you might just end up stacking shelves regardless of whether you have gone to a 'university' or not. This costs the tax payer money, as those earning under £21k don't have to pay a thing back - the odds are they won't pay much of their loan (including interest) back at all - all to the cost of the taxpayer.

The reasons why one doesn't put the effort in can be wide and varying, for some people, education is dull and boring, they want real life working experience. That's why I'll return to my earlier point. Entry requirements to university education cannot increase until we have suitable, quality apprenticeship programmes for those that don't enjoy studying full time.