I am pro-Israel, ask me anything

See, my support for the country comes only from the fact that it is a liberal democracy fighting tyrannies. If it were fighting liberal democracies then I would not support it.

X

How many more operations do you think israel will undertake before they decide to go for peace talks?
So far we have had:
-operation hot winter
-operation summer rains
-operation returning echo
-operation cast lead
operation pillar of defence
-......etc
secondary question: where do they come up with these fancy operation names

-In 2008, Israel sent soldiers into Gaza. An estimated 1,300 people, many of them civilians, were killed in Gaza before a ceasefire was declared; 13 Israeli soldiers also died.
-In 2012, at least 167 Palestinians and six Israelis were killed during an Israeli operation. After eight days a ceasefire was declared with both sides promising to stop attacks.
-Most recently in July 2014, Palestinian authorities said over 200 people were killed by Israeli air strikes and many more injured. Israel says more than 1,100 rockets were fired from Gaza, seriously injuring at least four Israelis, with one Israeli man killed. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/20436092)

-Around 7000 Palestinians have been killed since 2001 compared to 1000 Israelis. (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html )

-Almost 90,000 Palestinians have been killed compared to 24,000 Israelis since 1920.(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html)

Maybe these figures may not be accurate but they all show a significantly higher number of deaths in Palestine.
What do you think of Palestinians irredentist claims?
Do you know any Zionists?
Do you agree with the way Israel was formed?

Would you support every action a liberal democracy carried out just because it is a liberal democracy?

What about when a liberal democracy carries out actions on people not from within said liberal democracy? The people facing the consequence of these actions had no part to play in the democratic process you are so fond of. It is entirety possible for a "freedom loving" country to behave horrendously to people outside of it's borders.

I also have problems with describing Israel as a liberal democracy for the same reasons I would america, but that is for another thread and I can't be arsed going down that road again. (when using the dictionary definition of 'liberal' and 'democracy')

I'm not sure eradicating terrorists is the best way to do that - Vietnam war? Surely there are other ways to protect themselves sans violence?

OP - why do you support Israel?

This is exactly the type of ignorance that is impossible to argue with.
The might of the USA spent more on its defence forces in Vietnam, and still manged to kill 587,000 civilians. You cannot fight against guerrilla tactics without civilian lives being lost. The fact that so few Palestinian civilian lives have been lost is wonderful.

And stretch it back a bit futher and Israel start losing land. The decision to give Israel their own land was a UN-decision long ago decided and Israel gained a lot of land since then through wars it did not start.
Plus, the only ones who no longer support Israel's right to exist are terrorists although you are welcome to side with them if you so wish.

The answer to all of those questions ultimately comes down to the differences between Israel and Iran.

There are many problems with Iran which include the fact that although they may elect a more moderate president, it is ultimately the Ayatollah who is in charge. This is the same Ayatollah who sit back and let, or more like sided with, Ahmadinejad when he made statements such as pledging to wipe Israel off the face of the map, or effectively declaring possible war on the West and the USA. This makes it incredibly difficult to trust Iran.

Even without that, there are still doubts about whether one can trust the new president Rouhani and significant doubts surround him despite being called a moderate, the suicide statement of his son included amongst them.

And whichever way you look at it, Iran have lied to the West for years about the purposes of their nuclear research and it is extremely difficult to trust them now.

Iran are also doing this less out of their free will, and more buckling in the face of extreme sanctions.

Israel has most likely had its nukes for years, and has never even threatened, let alone contemplated using them. Iran by contrast are a liability and could do anything when they get theirs. No-one is declaring war on Iran so they do NOT need them.

I do not see that Israel would ever eradicate its stock seeing as it has so many foreign enemies, and I, like the democracies, do not trust Iran either for the reasons above.
Plus the Western countries that effectively control all of these international regulatory bodies have no motivation for Israel to eradicate its stock so once again it will never occur.

I hope I answered your questions in that ramble.

Are you holding up the Vitnamese War as the paradigm of a successful military operation?

Jesus wept...

The highlighted sentence makes me feel queasy. You clearly have a high tolerance for civilian carnage.

I feel I have to clarify that I'm not a supporter of Hamas and I believe in Isarel's right to exist but some of the attitudes on the pro-Israel side are chilling.

I do not agree with Palestinian irredentist claims or aren't we essentially pitting the Islam against Judaism? For the same reason, I am not sure the creation of the state was done in the best way either,.
Nonetheless, Israel have set up a brilliantly functioning democracy and the only one in the region where anyone peaceful can live in safety. I do not that type of country should not be written off.

And yes, I know many Zionists. I support the State of Israel's right to exist so I suppose that in a sense I am a form of Zionist too.

I have first hand witness statements of civilians giving themselves up as human shields for targets that Israel warned were about to be hit. I doubt you have the same evidence.

And I do not uphold Vietnam whatsoever, but I am proving to you that regardless of how powerful your military is, it is always impossible not to lose civilian lives when the opposition employs guerrilla tactics.

I appreciate your response even if I don't think you answered my questions in a manner I envisaged.
The first question concerned only Israel so no mention of Iran is necessary. Although as for the double standards in dealing with Israel and Iran I can, to some extent, sympathise with that POV.
Ahmadinejad never pledged to wipe Israel off the face of the map, he called to 'eliminate the zionist regime'. I hope you'll agree that these are not the same things.

What of the deputy speaker of the Knesset who recently supported the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? Does this make it difficult to trust Israel? There are extremists in all countries, and I daresay Israel has almost as many as Iran.

There are many people who hate the regime in Iran, this is indisputable. Perhaps most noteworthy is Hussein Khomeini (grandson of ex Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah).
I'm not sure I agree with this. Can you please provide some evidence of this? The IAEI state in every report of Iran's nuclear facilities that they have no suspicions of a plan to achieve nuclear weapons and all the US's intelligence corroborates this.

Doing what, negotiating? I believe you are mistaken if you believe that Iran can be brought to negotiate through sanctions and economic hardship.

Lest us forget the 'grand bargain' offered to the USA in 2003 from Iran )where they pledged to cease support for militant groups such as Hamas/Hezbollah and severely limit their nuclear programme in exchange for the normalisation of relations), which was rejected by the Bush administration.

Lest us also not forget how Iran provided intel and physical support for the USA in Afghanistan, only to be repaid by being labelled as part of an 'axis of evil'.


I more of less agree with the first statement, I disagree with the second and the third is simply false.
It would not be in Iran's interests to use nuclear weapons (if they developed them, which I believe will never happen as a result of the fatwa issued against it), and most experts agree on this matter.
As for Iran not needing nuclear weapons, Israel and the USA have threatened to bomb Iran for several years now and the assassination of its top nuclear scientists (almost certainly by Mossad) would both provide a reasonable incentive to provide a balance of power in the region.
And Iran does not have foreign enemies? The USA/Israel/Saudi Arabia are perhaps three of Iran's most determined enemies.
Countries cannot ask Israel to eradicate its stockpile, because Israel refuses to ratify the NPT and/or allow IAEA inspections of its facilities.
Regardless, the question I was asking was which of the two scenario do you think would you preferable, I did not ask about how you rated the likelihood of either.


See above.

I would support any liberal democracy's efforts to destroy tyranny, and that is what Israel is trying to do in Gaza. Obviously I do not support everything the IDF has done, but I support their side in the war.

Define guerilla tactics? Often guerilla tactics are employed by an indigenous force with popular local support fighting a wealthier, better resourced, imperialist force. See the Irish War of Independence (followed as a template by Zionist Guerilla forces like Irgun incidentally) as an example.

That's fine if you have witness statements. I can't discuss them as I don't have your witness statement and can't verify them either way. I have no doubt some civilians sympathise with Hamas however. That still doesn't explain away Israeli shelling of hospitals and beaches.

The issue doesn't lie with religion, it is about land that once was occupied by Palestinian's and essentially taken over by Israel who then drove them out. I understand Israel wanting a homeland, but do you not think Palestine deserves the right to the land?
Israeli's may be living peacefully but Palestine is not - And that can not all be blamed on Hamas
Why is there an inequality of rights between Palestinians and Israelis?
Why was Israel given 55% of land and Palestinians given only 45.. and why did 55% of land move to 78% being occupied by Israelis?

(by the way I'm not intentionally trying to sound harsh, I just want to increase my understanding on what Israelis believe)

And the UN 2006-2010 being concerned about Iran's nuclear weapons production is enough to make it a significant point. Plus, as you will admit, Iran have an obvious agenda to gain such weapons.

Which includes supporting the correct western backed tyrannies I would assume from our past discussions. (Not that I am including Isreal in that).

It is also no good destroying tyranny if you have killed everyone you are supposedly liberating. Also phrases like "destroying tyranny" reek of double speak. Carpet bombing entire population points is very liberating.