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Intellectual elitism is what Uni should be about - not a means to educate everyone

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Original post by RocketCiaranJ
By allowing only the A*A*A* people into University, you prevent anyone who might have made the slightest mistake from gaining a quality education. Again, we would be missing the best Einstein.


That's an issue with exams themselves. That they are so straightforward that they measure carefulness rather than brilliance. If all A Levels were more similar to AEA/STEP papers, it would work a lot better.

Oh, and Einstein would certainly have got A*A*A* considering he would have chosen Maths, Further Maths and Physics. In fact he'd probably have got that when he was 12.
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
By allowing only the A*A*A* people into University, you prevent anyone who might have made the slightest mistake from gaining a quality education. Again, we would be missing the best Einstein.


Oh and I did not say I am in favour of only letting A*A*A* students into university. I was just responding to your point about there being 'no way to compensate for differences in schooling/upbringing', and pointing out that there are.
Original post by ClickItBack
That's an issue with exams themselves. That they are so straightforward that they measure carefulness rather than brilliance. If all A Levels were more similar to AEA/STEP papers, it would work a lot better.

Oh, and Einstein would certainly have got A*A*A* considering he would have chosen Maths, Further Maths and Physics. In fact he'd probably have got that when he was 12.

Imagining that Einstein was not the plagiarist that he was (we're not debating that), was he not also known to fail many subjects in school?
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
Imagining that Einstein was not the plagiarist that he was (we're not debating that), was he not also known to fail many subjects in school?


What's him being likely to fail Dance A Level got to do with his ability to get A*A*A* in M, FM and Physics?
Original post by ClickItBack
What's him being likely to fail Dance A Level got to do with his ability to get A*A*A* in M, FM and Physics?

You misunderstand; I meant that he was known to fail Maths. Still, if we were to take your point, my response would be that any system - such as the one we're talking about - would also check GCSEs, not just A-Levels. So, if Einstein was to fail dance, he would not be the idealised student that you say should ONLY be allowed into University. Thus, Einstein would be rejected from your system.
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
You misunderstand; I meant that he was known to fail Maths.


Pretty sure that's a myth.
Original post by Brit_Miller
Pretty sure that's a myth.

Nope. He failed; not because he was unable to do it, but because he was teaching himself degree level maths at the time. My point is that, in your system, Einstein would have been rejected because he did this.
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
Nope. He failed...


Can you give a source for that?
Reply 28
Avatar for lucaf
lucaf
13
I think we do need to get rid of this culture where everybody is expected to go through uni, when many would have been better off going straight into work or going through apprenticeship schemes or something. There are a lot of decent paths people can take, and forcing them ll down the uni road is not the best move.
Original post by Brit_Miller
Can you give a source for that?

:biggrin:Ignore that point; it was first reported on an untrue issue of Ripleys Believe it or not, and was supported by Nazi propaganda. Still, the point stands that Einstein was not perfect academically.
Original post by lucaf
I think we do need to get rid of this culture where everybody is expected to go through uni, when many would have been better off going straight into work or going through apprenticeship schemes or something. There are a lot of decent paths people can take, and forcing them ll down the uni road is not the best move.

And, these paths are wholly unproductive to our society as a whole. When was the last time that a bricklayer revolutionised the world?
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
:biggrin:Ignore that point; it was first reported on an untrue issue of Ripleys Believe it or not, and was supported by Nazi propaganda. Still, the point stands that Einstein was not perfect academically.


:lol:
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 32
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lucaf
13
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
And, these paths are wholly unproductive to our society as a whole. When was the last time that a bricklayer revolutionised the world?


The world needs bricklayers, it does not need more graduates with devalued degrees. Many people are going through uni and then finding their degree is useless in getting them a job because there simply isn't that demand for graduates. If they had taken other routes it may have worked out better for them, and better for society. It is not a choice between going university and working minimum wage.
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
...


Should point out I don't agree with this academic snobbery either - people should play to their strengths whether that's getting a degree in physics or a degree in art. Also think some people develop at different points in life - some at 16-18 some later on - so I wouldn't agree with a strict grade limit. Plus that would produce a lot of dicks.
Original post by lucaf
The world needs bricklayers, it does not need more graduates with devalued degrees. Many people are going through uni and then finding their degree is useless in getting them a job because there simply isn't that demand for graduates. If they had taken other routes it may have worked out better for them, and better for society. It is not a choice between going university and working minimum wage.

But then, the ******* is that we promote less intellectual jobs. In schools, the millions of impoverished students, with families who have menial labour jobs, will see the 'other routes' as easier solutions in life. We encourage such students to take these paths, and perhaps miss out on the next Einstein by increasing the likelihood that he'll become a bricklayer, and not a revolutionary.
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
You misunderstand; I meant that he was known to fail Maths. Still, if we were to take your point, my response would be that any system - such as the one we're talking about - would also check GCSEs, not just A-Levels. So, if Einstein was to fail dance, he would not be the idealised student that you say should ONLY be allowed into University. Thus, Einstein would be rejected from your system.


As pointed out, it's a myth that he ever failed maths.

Also you're completely twisting what I'm saying. I never said anything about universities judging on GCSEs. I think judging on A Levels, and more rigorous A Levels at that, are the way to go. That's what many good universities do anyway. Cambridge does not care if you got a D in French GCSE if you have 100 UMS in M/FM/Physics and apply for Maths.

And, again, I never said A*A*A* students should be the only ones to go university. All I did was point out that it is perfectly possible to compensate and adjust for upbringing and schooling, so that a smaller university intake does not necessarily have to be a more 'privileged' university intake.
Reply 36
Avatar for lucaf
lucaf
13
Original post by RocketCiaranJ
But then, the ******* is that we promote less intellectual jobs. In schools, the millions of impoverished students, with families who have menial labour jobs, will see the 'other routes' as easier solutions in life. We encourage such students to take these paths, and perhaps miss out on the next Einstein by increasing the likelihood that he'll become a bricklayer, and not a revolutionary.


The thing is, not everyone is going to be the next Einstein. If you send everyone to uni you just end up with lots of people with degrees they can't do anything with, because supply exceeds demand. There are a lot of decent and respectable careers you can get into without going to uni, but this culture of pushing people into uni regardless of whether it will actually benefit them or not means that a so many students are left unemployable and in debt.

I have quite a few friends who went straight into work rather than go to uni and are doing pretty well for themselves. I doubt any of them will change the world, but I don't see them doing any better than my other friends who have gone to uni without the slightest clue what they are going to do after.
Original post by Straw-man666
People need to stop taking stupid subjects

Only STEM degrees pls. No BS micky mouse courses


Only STEM? You don't think people should study:

Politics
Economics
History
Law

and the many other subjects that aren't STEM but whose students shape the world?
Original post by Brit_Miller
Can you give a source for that?


I have a biography style book on Einstein and his influence on Physics that you may be interested in looking up. I can't remember exactly what it says but I seem to recall it mentioning Einsteins early education ane even producing a copy of one of his report cards. It is called '100 Years of Relativity'.
Original post by ClickItBack
As pointed out, it's a myth that he ever failed maths.

Also you're completely twisting what I'm saying. I never said anything about universities judging on GCSEs. I think judging on A Levels, and more rigorous A Levels at that, are the way to go. That's what many good universities do anyway. Cambridge does not care if you got a D in French GCSE if you have 100 UMS in M/FM/Physics and apply for Maths.

And, again, I never said A*A*A* students should be the only ones to go university. All I did was point out that it is perfectly possible to compensate and adjust for upbringing and schooling, so that a smaller university intake does not necessarily have to be a more 'privileged' university intake.

Yes, but everything really has a chain effect. While a top university might not judge a person, directly, based on their GCSEs, a bad grade can prevent a person from going to a decent sixth form. A more affluent family will be capable of offering personal tutors to compensate for a bad sixth form. Thus, it will be more easy to become an A*A*A* person if you're rich.

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