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Dutch pro-palestinian protest turns into pro-ISIS and "death to Jews" protest

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Original post by UniOfLife
Possibly inaccurate. But really the word should not have any use any more except for historical uses. Just as there is no word for those who support the British nation state there ought to be no word for those who support the Jewish nation state. It is only because of racists who oppose only the Jewish nation state that the word Zionist is still in common usage. If the people who call themselves anti-Zionist were not racist then they would have invented some other word to incorporate all nation states. But they single out only the Jewish nation state and that is definitionally antisemitic.


I agree with this. All sorts of states were founded on what I would call questionable (or downright insane) ideas, but that doesn't mean we should oppose their existence once they already exist (unless they are non-democracies, in which case I want them destroyed).
Original post by UniOfLife


"Zionist beliefs" are two tenets: (1) That there is a Jewish nation and (2) the Jewish nation has the same rights as any other national group. Which of those do you object to? If neither than you share Zionist beliefs.




Hmmm so there's nothing about the actual location? Why chose Palestine? Because it is in the biblical promised land. Zionism is rooted in the OT/Torah. Some Christian said that King David was a Zionist too.

You know you'll could have chosen somewhere more suitable? Why in a place surrounded by enemies? Perhaps they were the more tolerable ones at that time.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Hmmm so there's nothing about the actual location? Why chose Palestine? Because it is in the biblical promised land. Zionism is rooted in the OT/Torah. Some Christian said that King David was a Zionist too.

You know you'll could have chosen somewhere more suitable? Why in a place surrounded by enemies? Perhaps they were the more tolerable ones at that time.


I take it from your response that you share Zionist beliefs. Excellent :smile:

The location was chosen because the Jewish nation has an incredibly strong tie to that location. It is where the Jewish nation lived for a thousand years before the destruction of the First Temple. It is where the Jewish nation was reborn again for about 500 years. It has remained the focus of the Jewish nation for two thousand years after that.

You ask why they chose a place surrounded by enemies. Are the Arabs enemies of Israel because they don't want any non-Arab state there or because they don't want a Jewish state there? Either way, the problem is with the Arabs and of their choosing. It would have been wrong to deny the Jewish nation their return to their ancestral homeland (especially when many hundreds of thousands had already gone there) on the basis of Arab racism.
Original post by UniOfLife
I take it from your response that you share Zionist beliefs. Excellent :smile:

The location was chosen because the Jewish nation has an incredibly strong tie to that location. It is where the Jewish nation lived for a thousand years before the destruction of the First Temple. It is where the Jewish nation was reborn again for about 500 years. It has remained the focus of the Jewish nation for two thousand years after that.

You ask why they chose a place surrounded by enemies. Are the Arabs enemies of Israel because they don't want any non-Arab state there or because they don't want a Jewish state there? Either way, the problem is with the Arabs and of their choosing. It would have been wrong to deny the Jewish nation their return to their ancestral homeland (especially when many hundreds of thousands had already gone there) on the basis of Arab racism.



Does or does not Zionism dictate the location for setting up their homeland?
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Does or does not Zionism dictate the location for setting up their homeland?


It does not.

As I said, there were Zionists who wanted a state in Uganda.
Original post by UniOfLife
It does not.



That's news to me. I'll now call myself an "anti-Israel Zionist" :biggrin:
Original post by RoyalBlue7
That's news to me. I'll now call myself an "anti-Israel Zionist" :biggrin:


Why not just say you are opposed to some of Israel's policies?

Or do you oppose every single thing Israel does?
Original post by UniOfLife
Why not just say you are opposed to some of Israel's policies?

Or do you oppose every single thing Israel does?




I oppose the very existence of Israel. They have landed themselves in their land, but their scriptures are scary. Its only a matter of time before a diehard Zionist seizes power over Israel. I don't believe that peace is possible with Israel

Of course its impractical to destroy Israel but if they have used their militarily might and won wars and conquered land and violate international laws - what's stops the Arabs (Palestinians) from doing the same with Israel?

Of course you shouldn't be disturbed about someone wanting another sovereign state to be destroyed - in this thread itself I've read a poster saying that he would want any state not based on the principles of liberal democracy to be destroyed. Of course by destroying I mean lose leadership over the land, not killing off everyone.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by RoyalBlue7
I oppose the very existence of Israel. They have landed themselves in their land, but their scriptures are scary. Its only a matter of time before a diehard Zionist seizes power over Israel. I don't believe that peace is possible with Israel

Of course its impractical to destroy Israel but if they have used their militarily might and won wars and conquered land and violate international laws - what's stops the Arabs (Palestinians) from doing the same with Israel?

Of course you shouldn't be disturbed about someone wanting another sovereign state to be destroyed - in this thread itself I've read a poster saying that he would want any state not based on the principles of liberal democracy to be destroyed. Of course by destroying I mean lose leadership over the land, not killing off everyone.


On what basis do you oppose the existence of Israel? If it's on the basis of its scriptures then I think many would argue that the Koran is more worrying than the OT. Does that mean all Muslim countries should be destroyed? If it's on the basis of its human rights record then what about the plenty of other countries with worse human rights records? If it's on the basis of aggression to its neighbours what about other countries which have shown similar or worse aggression?
Original post by UniOfLife
On what basis do you oppose the existence of Israel? If it's on the basis of its scriptures then I think many would argue that the Koran is more worrying than the OT. Does that mean all Muslim countries should be destroyed? If it's on the basis of its human rights record then what about the plenty of other countries with worse human rights records? If it's on the basis of aggression to its neighbours what about other countries which have shown similar or worse aggression?


A great deal of whataboutery there. Did the Israelis give their acceptable reasons to the Arabs when they decided to ask Britain for some land there? No. They won the war that followed but IMO the war never ended. I don't opposed the rogue state on virtue of scripture. ( In fact the Koran also shows Moses promising the Israelites their land and commanding them not to turn their backs onto it. It also states that God would bring out the Jews from various nations onto the Promised Land at the End of days. But yes, they will provide the host for the impostor Messiah (Anti Christ) when he appears in their temple).

I think many would argue that the Koran is more worrying than the OT


No if they possess sufficient knowledge of both scriptures they would know which one is more worrying.
Original post by RoyalBlue7
A great deal of whataboutery there. Did the Israelis give their acceptable reasons to the Arabs when they decided to ask Britain for some land there? No. They won the war that followed but IMO the war never ended. I don't opposed the rogue state on virtue of scripture. ( In fact the Koran also shows Moses promising the Israelites their land and commanding them not to turn their backs onto it. It also states that God would bring out the Jews from various nations onto the Promised Land at the End of days. But yes, they will provide the host for the impostor Messiah (Anti Christ) when he appears in their temple).


Of course there is "whataboutery" because the important question is whether you are consistent or not. If you are consistent in applying claimed principles then all is good. But if you only apply your claimed principles to Israel then you are antisemitic. Simple as that.
Original post by UniOfLife
Of course there is "whataboutery" because the important question is whether you are consistent or not. If you are consistent in applying claimed principles then all is good. But if you only apply your claimed principles to Israel then you are antisemitic. Simple as that.


If there is any other nation acting like an Israel then I would not have any kind feelings towards them.

It's high time the US listens to you. It goes digging around Iran searching for nukes when Israel has enough nukes to bomb the entire ME back to stone age. I guess the West is antiIranian.
Not as bad as France's gas the Jews protest.

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