The Student Room Group

Becoming A Surgeon...

This is more of a medicine career related question.

I just completed my work experience and was lucky enough to see a CABG performed by an immensely experienced cardiothoracic surgeon. He went to Cambridge for his undergraduate degree and was telling me how useful that was in getting on the surgical placements for him...

I was really taken back by the experience. I would like to do something like that in the future.

So, anyway, my questions are...

1) How would I become a surgeon (in whatever specialty) after graduating from a U.K. Medical School? (I.e. what stages are involved and at which stage does the crucial differentiation of 'surgeon' and 'doctor' actually occur?)

2) How important is it to have a degree from a well-respected university in the U.K. to getting, not only surgical posts, but popular posts throughout the NHS? Is it the university that matters or the final outcome of the degree? (Eg. a 1st, etc.).

And finally,

3) Do interventional occupations generally lead to larger salaries? (e.g. interventional Cardiologists/Radiologists). Is this because of the private practice?

Thanks very much,

Vazzyb.
Reply 1
Where you graduate has no bearing on where you are placed in the early years - the F1 application system is 'blinded' in terms of university...
Reply 2
1) http://www.mmc.nhs.uk/download_files/A5-Past-Future-insert-DL.pdf should help.

2) Not very much, I should think(/hope!), but not really sure. Btw, medical degrees aren't classified, although if you intercalate, that degreee probably will be.
Reply 3
Apparently some degrees are - I think I remeber Helenia saying Tabby med degrees are, ?based on tripos performance
Vazzyb
This is more of a medicine career related question.

I just completed my work experience and was lucky enough to see a CABG performed by an immensely experienced cardiothoracic surgeon. He went to Cambridge for his undergraduate degree and was telling me how useful that was in getting on the surgical placements for him...

I was really taken back by the experience. I would like to do something like that in the future.

So, anyway, my questions are...

1) How would I become a surgeon (in whatever specialty) after graduating from a U.K. Medical School? (I.e. what stages are involved and at which stage does the crucial differentiation of 'surgeon' and 'doctor' actually occur?)

2) How important is it to have a degree from a well-respected university in the U.K. to getting, not only surgical posts, but popular posts throughout the NHS? Is it the university that matters or the final outcome of the degree? (Eg. a 1st, etc.).

And finally,

3) Do interventional occupations generally lead to larger salaries? (e.g. interventional Cardiologists/Radiologists). Is this because of the private practice?

Thanks very much,

Vazzyb.


The cambridge connection would have been useful for him...back in the 1980s. But not so much anymore. Your undergrad (intercalated) degree results in alot of places are graded (1st, 2.1 etc). Anything less than a 2.1 is basically not worth mentioning though - unless you did a good dissertation.

1) The differentiation to surgeon would start at SHO level with the posts you select. In F1/F2 i think there is a limited amount of surgery you can do simply because the posts are designed to give you a bit more of an overview. Eventually the big discriminator will be at the level of reg - i.e. when you go in for your post graduate qualifications - MRCP type stuff.

2) Not important really anymore. THink in logical terms. What matters more to a consultant - that Dr. C when to the top med school, or that Dr C has had gleaming reports from the posts he has done since leaving med school.

3) No, not really. Money is a bit random as far as the NHS is concerned, and its pretty tricky to try to work out which area will get the most cash, and rather variable too.

4) I think yourself, and anyone with this line of thinking should cool it a bit and wait at least 5 years before thinking about it again. Surgery is not that exciting when you have been in a few. CABGs and vascualr surgery are downright dull I think. Lots of suturing. O. joy.

You should wait till you actually have a few years clinical practice under your belt before deciding what sort of area you want to go into. Because right now you have no better idea than when you were 12. You'll find that as you work in different areas you'll change your mind several times, ones you thought would be cool will be dull, ones you thought would be awful are challenging.


No one need think about their career really until they hit 2nd year and a re choosing their BSc. Unless you are that 'GKT a-hole' that wrote that egomaniacal book about how to become the most sought after prho in the world. But he's ugly and dull so we don't care.
Reply 5
he's made it hell for the rest of us at GKT... now we're all supposed to be nobel prize winning, book publishing, consultant everythings by the time we hit 2nd year.
Reply 6
Thanks for you responses. They were quite informative and yes, ill keep it mind that my mind probably will change a few times before I have to choose. :smile:
Get some surgical skills experience through your local University open day / widening access programme. It'll help you decide whether you enjoy fiddling about with surgical instruments, show you whether you have a natural aptitude for it, and give you the opportunity to speak with a variety of surgeons (nothing against cardiac surgeons, they're just a slightly different genre than your average surgeon).

As a medical student you can join the surgical society, pick surgical SSMs and PBLs, and make the most of surgical opportunities which present themselves.

As others have already said, having seen a CABG is not a wise reason to narrow down your career choices just yet, but each clinical opportunity you have can help point you in the direction of something which you enjoy, are good at, and are suited to.
Oops, forgot to answer your questions:

Vazzyb

1) How would I become a surgeon (in whatever specialty) after graduating from a U.K. Medical School? (I.e. what stages are involved and at which stage does the crucial differentiation of 'surgeon' and 'doctor' actually occur?)

This will probably have changed by the time you get there, but in the past, surgical trainees have undertaken 2-3 years of BST at SHO level (during which they complete MRCS exams) then 5-6 years of HST as an SpR. Sadly, Calman's system is no more, and although the Royal College exams will still exist for the foreseeable future, they'll be taken during 6 years of run-through training which is entered after the Foundation years.

Surgeons are always 'doctors' as they don't lose their Bachelor's degree. They become Mr/Miss after MRCS, but this is likely to change in the near future. Additionally, a lot of female surgeons who are either married or have an MD/PhD, keep the title 'Dr' as a surgeon. Confused yet?

2) How important is it to have a degree from a well-respected university in the U.K. to getting, not only surgical posts, but popular posts throughout the NHS? Is it the university that matters or the final outcome of the degree? (Eg. a 1st, etc.).
It's not. How you perform after graduating matters more. In interviews for surgical jobs they'll look at your undergraduate and postgraduate achievements. Prizes are always good, as are outside interests and qualifications/achievements outside medicine.


3) Do interventional occupations generally lead to larger salaries? (e.g. interventional Cardiologists/Radiologists). Is this because of the private practice?
Private practice is a dodgy issue at the moment, and the entire culture is likely to undergo change in the near future. My recommendation: if you're thinking about private practice at this stage, medicine/surgery probably isn't for you.
Reply 9
Fluffy
Apparently some degrees are - I think I remeber Helenia saying Tabby med degrees are, ?based on tripos performance


The first three years are classified (your 2 pre-clinical years and your "intercalated" year/Part II) but I don't think that clinicals are. I think you can get a distinction for clinicals if you're super good but there's not much more classification than that beyond pass/fail.