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Does white middle class culture shun masculinity?

Firstly, this is not an anti-feminism thread. I don't want to hear about feminists and how they friendzoned your virgin-ass before stealing your non-existent wealth in a divorce court.



Anyway this is a trend I have noticed growing up and it seems massively restricted to people who are both White and middle class. To begin with, consider the sorts of sports men who fall into this bracket tend to take part in, it's usually things like long-distance running, orienteering, tennis and possibly swimming, contrast this with typically working class sports, such as boxing or weightlifting.

It also extends to diet (the meat thread got me slightly thinking about this topic), of the male-vegetarians I have met, all of them did fall into that typical left-wing, slightly androgynous, middle class, social-justice warrior archetype. Equally stereotypical working class food, seems to include lots of meat, be very heavy and perhaps include less vegetables than it should.

There are also attitudes towards things like violence and confrontation; in working class culture, it is seen as a positive to be willing to fight and even more so, to win, whereas middle-class society, almost teaches you that it's shameful, that you "lost" your temper, the very language used alludes to a person who fought as not being worth as much as they were before (lost).

It's not just these things and I do fully expect someone to make some smug comment about how it's wrong to define masculinity and femininity in these ways and I would like to say I am not telling guys that it's wrong not to be masculine (it's neither right nor wrong, you can't help who you are), but I do wonder if there is a social pressure in this regard, which rather than rigidly enforcing traditional gender identity, stereotypes anything relating to traditional manhood, as being unrefined and bad.
(edited 9 years ago)

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Rugby is also a middle class sport, and you don't get much more masculine than that
Reply 2
Original post by yo radical one
Firstly, this is not an anti-feminism thread. I don't want to hear about feminists and how they friendzoned your virgin-ass before stealing your non-existent wealth in a divorce court.

Anyway this is a trend I have noticed growing up and it seems massively restricted to people who are both White and middle class. To begin with, consider the sorts of sports men who fall into this bracket tend to take part in, it's usually things like long-distance running, orienteering, tennis and possibly swimming, contrast this with typically working class sports, such as boxing or weightlifting.

It also extends to diet (the meat thread got me slightly thinking about this topic), of the male-vegetarians I have met, all of them did fall into that typical left-wing, slightly androgynous, middle class, social-justice warrior archetype. Equally stereotypical working class food, seems to include lots of meat, be very heavy and perhaps include less vegetables than it should.

There are also attitudes towards things like violence and confrontation; in working class culture, it is seen as a positive to be willing to fight and even more so, to win, whereas middle-class society, almost teaches you that it's shameful, that you "lost" your temper, the very language used alludes to a person who fought as not being worth as much as they were before (lost).

It's not just these things and I do fully expect someone to make some smug comment about how it's wrong to define masculinity and femininity in these ways and I would like to say I am not telling guys that it's wrong not to be masculine (it's neither right nor wrong, you can't help who you are), but I do wonder if there is a social pressure in this regard, which rather than rigidly enforcing traditional gender identity, stereotypes anything relating to traditional manhood, as being unrefined and bad.


There's almost a "culture" of trying to be seen as ironic/procrastinating/ not working hard among several middle-class kids these day. The winner's mindset of working your ass off and putting in the hours, taking the risks, seems to have gone the way of the dodo for many.
Original post by Mworswick
Rugby is also a middle class sport, and you don't get much more masculine than that


This is a fair point actually.


I'm not sure what my thoughts on it are though; on the one hand it does require more physical strength than football, however the general followers of rugby, do have that passive-aggressive elitist streak. Often the fans will take every opportunity to claim moral superiority over football. Complain about footballers arguing with the referee or lacking sportmanship, how football fans are "chavs", it's that petty bitchiness.
Original post by Swirll
There's almost a "culture" of trying to be seen as ironic/procrastinating/ not working hard among several middle-class kids these day. The winner's mindset of working your ass off and putting in the hours, taking the risks, seems to have gone the way of the dodo for many.


This is exactly true too, it's not as if I am trying to say that people from working class backgrounds are typical "LADS" and that the middle class person is the intellectual and I do admit that my post did slightly give off this impression, but yeah, it's this celebration of passivity and being content with sitting comfortably in the middle of the road which for whatever reason has developed.
It certainly shuns traditional working class masculinity. But I think the middle class have always attempted to alienate themselves from traditional working class values. All we're seeing now is that the middle class has grown hugely in size, so more people are opposed to this view of masculinity.

To be honest, I think it's mostly a good thing. While there are some nice aspects of 'traditional' masculinity (e.g. hard work and graft), there are also less appealing parts, e.g. aggression, dominance over women, dislike of education, fear of expressing emotion.
yes very much so
Reply 7
I think a lot of people equate masculinity to "lad culture". There are varying types of masculinity, and just because the middle-classes are less likely to be found reading page 3 or getting lairy on a night out, doesn't necessarily mean they aren't masculine in their own way.
Original post by yo radical one
This is a fair point actually.


I'm not sure what my thoughts on it are though; on the one hand it does require more physical strength than football, however the general followers of rugby, do have that passive-aggressive elitist streak. Often the fans will take every opportunity to claim moral superiority over football. Complain about footballers arguing with the referee or lacking sportmanship, how football fans are "chavs", it's that petty bitchiness.


I take your point, but generally the more middle class people I know seem more masculine. Being a chav is not a sign of masculinity- chavs are intimidating but I wouldn't say masculine
Original post by Mackay
I think a lot of people equate masculinity to "lad culture". There are varying types of masculinity, and just because the middle-classes are less likely to be found reading page 3 or getting lairy on a night out, doesn't necessarily mean they aren't masculine in their own way.


This. To achieve hegemonic masculinity (the dominant form of masculinity) men generally have to be white, heterosexual and importantly middle-class so other forms of masculinity are often developed because most men are unable to achieve the hegemonic form and therefore need to assert their masculinity in a different way. For working class men who find it more difficult to earn a steady wage to support their family (an important part of hegemonic masculinity), they have to find other ways to show their masculinity. Emphasising other aspects of masculinity such as violence, risk taking and subordinating women is a way to achieve this. This form has interestingly become seen as the main example of typical masculine behaviour but the people who express their masculinity in this way are not the most powerful group - in fact they are usually the opposite, but it is probably the most visible form of masculinity.
And OP, you're completely right about the vegetarian thing - I did my dissertation of vegetarianism and masculinity and the majority of my participants were middle-class men who weren't bothered about living up to the idea of stereotypical masculinity. However the working class man I interviewed experienced a lot more ridicule for being vegetarian, particularly related to him being a male vegetarian. Again, this probably relates to working class men being unable to achieve the hegemonic ideal and therefore have to use other parts of their life to assert their masculinity.
Reply 11
Original post by ArtGoblin
but it is probably the most visible form of masculinity.


Completely agree. As proved by this thread's question.
Original post by ArtGoblin
This. To achieve hegemonic masculinity (the dominant form of masculinity) men generally have to be white, heterosexual and importantly middle-class so other forms of masculinity are often developed because most men are unable to achieve the hegemonic form and therefore need to assert their masculinity in a different way. For working class men who find it more difficult to earn a steady wage to support their family (an important part of hegemonic masculinity), they have to find other ways to show their masculinity. Emphasising other aspects of masculinity such as violence, risk taking and subordinating women is a way to achieve this. This form has interestingly become seen as the main example of typical masculine behaviour but the people who express their masculinity in this way are not the most powerful group - in fact they are usually the opposite, but it is probably the most visible form of masculinity.


I didn't really think about it this way; so your view is that everyone excluded from what I described uses these "less powerful" forms of masculinity to make up for having this outsider status?

I can see why a person in a disadvantaged position would want to create this sense of empowerment (I've always slightly suspected for example, that drinking culture and being proud of how much you can drink is a way of simulating achievement) but I don't understand when it comes to White middle class men, it seems less that they are simply secure enough not to feel the need to act a certain way and more that they are quite literally repressed. You almost think that acting in a way which is masculine is a chore for men and it is a privileged position not to have to do so? :curious:
Original post by yo radical one
Firstly, this is not an anti-feminism thread. I don't want to hear about feminists and how they friendzoned your virgin-ass before stealing your non-existent wealth in a divorce court.



Anyway this is a trend I have noticed growing up and it seems massively restricted to people who are both White and middle class. To begin with, consider the sorts of sports men who fall into this bracket tend to take part in, it's usually things like long-distance running, orienteering, tennis and possibly swimming, contrast this with typically working class sports, such as boxing or weightlifting.

It also extends to diet (the meat thread got me slightly thinking about this topic), of the male-vegetarians I have met, all of them did fall into that typical left-wing, slightly androgynous, middle class, social-justice warrior archetype. Equally stereotypical working class food, seems to include lots of meat, be very heavy and perhaps include less vegetables than it should.

There are also attitudes towards things like violence and confrontation; in working class culture, it is seen as a positive to be willing to fight and even more so, to win, whereas middle-class society, almost teaches you that it's shameful, that you "lost" your temper, the very language used alludes to a person who fought as not being worth as much as they were before (lost).

It's not just these things and I do fully expect someone to make some smug comment about how it's wrong to define masculinity and femininity in these ways and I would like to say I am not telling guys that it's wrong not to be masculine (it's neither right nor wrong, you can't help who you are), but I do wonder if there is a social pressure in this regard, which rather than rigidly enforcing traditional gender identity, stereotypes anything relating to traditional manhood, as being unrefined and bad.


Couldn't you define 'traditional manhood' as behaving in such a way that you are as successful in life as your potential allows? Middle class culture, whatever anyone thinks that is, certainly promotes achievement. Success = much offspring, afterall.


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I have noticed this.

Away from the sociology of it and focusing on the political, the divide between the working class and middle class left is apparent. Where I'm from there is a strong trade union movement, and focus on improving wages and living conditions for the working classes. But at university the left movement seemed much more cosmopolitan, concerned with issues such as multiculturalism, equality and environmentalism. For me this is the problem with Labour, they are moving to a place that alienates their traditional grass root supporters and voters. Although I don't believe that Labour has abandoned their core values, they seem to be getting diluted. People get angry seeing career politicians go straight from university, to a think tank and then becoming a parliamentary candidate. There is an increasingly lack of representation of the working class within Labour.

I'm from a working class background, and when I jokingly suggested to some guys at university that we should get into a fight they looked bewildered. It took a while to get use to the fact that men drank wine for pleasure, rather than for it's high alcoholic content. But ultimately there are more similarities than differences. Football has now transcended through the class system, gaming and certain television shows are mainstream regardless of class and we were all at university due to merit, not our background. There is a definite cultural gulf between the red brick terraces and the leafy green lawned suburbs of Britain. But at least amongst the younger generation that gulf is narrowing.
Reply 15
Original post by Swanbow
There is a definite cultural gulf between the red brick terraces and the leafy green lawned suburbs of Britain. But at least amongst the younger generation that gulf is narrowing.


I do agree with this.
Agreed and depends on context. To some, i'm a middle class kid, to most i'm a working class child. I can blend in in both social statuses, like doing menial sports amongst working class, and playing tennis among middle class. I find more happiness in working class, and more inclined to constructive thinking and competing amongst working class.

If u're talking about morals, the middle class man is more manly and responsible to raise himself from rags to riches. But in terms of pride and physical manhood, it's predominant in the working class, where you can find broken families and problems aroused by just getting through the day, with a stringent routine lacking comforts of life.

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(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 17
I remember hearing that some private schools have a real problem with steroid usage among pupils, is there any truth to this?

Original post by unbeknownst_anon

If u're talking about morals, the middle class man is more manly and responsible to raise himself from rags to riches.


You seem to be making the assumption that the middle class people are largely self-made; and where does your belief that those in the middle classes are somehow more moral come from?
You people have strange ideas of what being 'masculine' is.
Reply 19
sweeping generalisations but c. 18th century during the Enlightenment there was a double standard where although women were oppressed, rational masculinity was considered the height of virtue and 'civilisation', this translated roughly into 'feminine' virtues defining itself in opposition to working class/'peasant/plebeian' culture (considered uneducated raw masculinity i.e. 'primitive' 'barbarian') and 3 centuries on has now manifested as a slightly more 'feminised' middle class than the working class.

in other words rich nobles saw your average poverty-stricken Brit back then as closer to animals on a big silly chain of progress-cf Adam Smith

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