Twice as Many&#x27; British Muslims Fighting for ISIS Than in UK Armed Forces

Original post by Badshah

It's wrong to fight for Isis but why would we fight for the British army... a non Muslim army of a non Muslim country?

Why would Muslims fight in the British Army? Uh, because this is supposed to be their country too? It's not a "non Muslim army", or an any-religion army. It's the British Army, to protect the people in Britain (which I thought included Muslims).

If a Muslim is saying that someone from their religion living here should never fight in the armed forces, then what they're really saying is that they're not really "one of us". In which case they should **** off home.

And Muslims wonder why the people of Britain are increasingly skeptical of where Muslims' true loyalties lie when we have people saying stuff like this.

Reply 3

arkhamz

Original post by Badshah

It's wrong to fight for Isis but why would we fight for the British army... a non Muslim army of a non Muslim country?

Traitor pls leave.... pls... pls go.

Reply 4

MangoFreak

17

Isn't it sort of to be expected when ISIS is fighting a religious war, and the UK military is not? ISIS attracts extremists, whereas the armed forces are volunteer organisations which reject extremism.

If you're joining the military for the same reason people join ISIS, you're joining for the wrong reasons.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5

Autistic Merit

3

Maybe they don't agree with what the British army did under Blair?

Reply 6

Original post by Autistic Merit

Maybe they don't agree with what the British army did under Blair?

So you're saying no Muslim should ever fight in the British Army, to join the organisation that is pledged to defend all Britons, because they disagree with one operation with which it was involved ten years ago?

There are many Britons who also didn't agree with the War in Iraq. There were even soldiers who didn't agree with the War in Iraq. However, that operation was approved by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which was democratically elected by the whole citizenry.

If a certain section of the community is going to claim and benefit from the protection of our soldiers, but say they will never contribute by serving in that organisation, then they are wilfully setting themselves apart from and above the rest of the community.

By the way, there are many Muslims who do serve with honour in our armed forces. I do not want to disregard or fail to acknowledge their service in defence of their fellow Britons and the whole community.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7

Autistic Merit

3

Original post by young_guns

So you're saying no Muslim should ever fight in the British Army, to join the organisation that is pledged to defend all Britons, because they disagree with one operation with which it was involved ten years ago?

There are many Britons who also didn't agree with the War in Iraq. There were even soldiers who didn't agree with the War in Iraq. However, that operation was approved by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which was democratically elected by the whole citizenry.

If a certain section of the community is going to claim and benefit from the protection of our soldiers, but say they will never contribute by serving in that organisation, then they are wilfully setting themselves apart from and above the rest of the community.

By the way, there are many Muslims who do serve with honour in our armed forces. I do not want to disregard or fail to acknowledge their service in defence of their fellow Britons and the whole community.

I'm not a Muslim. I was just offering that as a possible explanation as to why some British Muslims would rather join ISIS than the British army.

Reply 8

Original post by Autistic Merit

I'm not a Muslim. I was just offering that as a possible explanation as to why some British Muslims would rather join ISIS than the British army.

How does one translate a disagreement with a deployment of the British Army into a willingness to join a murderous, fascist organisation that is killing thousands of Muslims? (and indeed destroying many mosques; the ISIS has used demolition explosives to destroy many Shi'a mosques and ancient shrines and tombs, obliterating historical sites with incalculable and priceless historical and cultural value).

Muslims are often telling us that they are like all other Britons, that they are a part of this community, they are our fellow citizens. And many of them do believe this, and act accordingly. Some even go further and join the British Armed Forces, defending all our people Muslim and non-Muslim alike who live in the United Kingdom.

Unfortunately, many Muslims see themselves as being apart from, and above, the non-Muslim community. Many of them don't feel any sense of reciprocity with, and connection to, the rest of the British community. That is a matter of profound regret for me. Many British Muslims have a very churlish resentment of the nation-state which has taken them in and is now their home, and feel more sense of loyalty to other Muslims (or what they perceive as Muslim causes) than they do to their own fellow Britons.

The fundamental test is this (and it's not the old Tebbit cricket test); the test is, "Would you report to the police / security services on fellow Muslims who you believe are preparing a terrorist attack in Britain?". Unfortunately, I believe there are many Muslims who while not doing terrorist acts themselves, equally would not report to the police / security services on others who were about to engage in such acts

Reply 9

The_Internet

20

Original post by young_guns

How does one translate a disagreement with a deployment of the British Army into a willingness to join a murderous, fascist organisation that is killing thousands of Muslims? (and indeed destroying many mosques; the ISIS has used demolition explosives to destroy many Shi'a mosques and ancient shrines and tombs, obliterating historical sites with incalculable and priceless historical and cultural value).

Muslims are often telling us that they are like all other Britons, that they are a part of this community, they are our fellow citizens. And many of them do believe this, and act accordingly. Some even go further and join the British Armed Forces, defending all our people Muslim and non-Muslim alike who live in the United Kingdom.

Unfortunately, many Muslims see themselves as being apart from, and above, the non-Muslim community. Many of them don't feel any sense of reciprocity with, and connection to, the rest of the British community. That is a matter of profound regret for me. Many British Muslims have a very churlish resentment of the nation-state which has taken them in and is now their home, and feel more sense of loyalty to other Muslims (or what they perceive as Muslim causes) than they do to their own fellow Britons.

The fundamental test is this (and it's not the old Tebbit cricket test); the test is, "Would you report to the police / security services on fellow Muslims who you believe are preparing a terrorist attack in Britain?". Unfortunately, I believe there are many Muslims who while not doing terrorist acts themselves, equally would not report to the police / security services on others who were about to engage in such acts

I'm pretty sure we're talking about entirely different groups of Muslims here. The British soldier type Muslims aren't exactly going to fight for ISIS, and ISIS soldiers are hardly going to fight for the British army

The way, in which this is portrayed, is saying that Muslims have "defected" to ISIS, or something along those lines, when in reality, there's hardly any Muslims in the army to begin with, and it's kinda easy to radicalise someone

Promise an uneducated drug dealer heaven, if he murders x people, in the name of God, he'll do it. Well that's obviously a gross simplification - I don't think you can go to a random drug dealer, and promise that, and they'd join you like that, buthopefully you get the just

Also, a lot of Muslims distrust the police - especially so in the USA...

Googling that headline doesn't really bring up any reliable sources either (No idea how reliable/biased newsweek is)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Twice+as+Many%27+British+Muslims+Fighting+for+ISIS+Than+in+UK&oq=Twice+as+Many%27+British+Muslims+Fighting+for+ISIS+Than+in+UK+&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 10

democracyforum

OP

4

If Britain declared war on Israel, every Muslim in Britain would join the army.

Reply 11

UniMastermindBOSS

19

Original post by Badshah

It's wrong to fight for Isis but why would we fight for the British army... a non Muslim army of a non Muslim country?

Because you constantly try to tell us that it's YOUR country too?

@OP I guess many muslims just want to take everything from this country and give nothing back.

Reply 12

missfats

Original post by democracyforum

If Britain declared war on Israel, every Muslim in Britain would join the army.

I know I would but only if we take strict measures in ensuring isreali innocent civilians are protected and spared

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 13

Original post by de_monies

I'm pretty sure we're talking about entirely different groups of Muslims here. The British soldier type Muslims aren't exactly going to fight for ISIS, and ISIS soldiers are hardly going to fight for the British army

The way, in which this is portrayed, is saying that Muslims have "defected" to ISIS, or something along those lines, when in reality, there's hardly any Muslims in the army to begin with, and it's kinda easy to radicalise someone

I see it somewhat differently. I think the point here is that, taking into account all 2.7 million Muslims in Britain, there are more Muslims who are willing to join a murderous fascist organisation than there are Muslims willing to join the Armed Forces of the island which is their home (and, for many, their birthplace).

I find it troubling that there are so few Muslims in our Armed Forces, and that must speak to and reflect on broader attitudes in the Muslim community. I would hope many more Muslims would feel that the British Army is their army too. That it protects all our people. I am concerned when some Muslims feel that their politico-religious affiliations to Muslims in other parts of the world overrides their connection to the island-state which is their home :frown:

The point here is that say only 1 in 100 people will act on their beliefs (whether to join the armed forces or ISIS), but the other 99 will hold the views that legitimises and provides the social base and psychological framework for acting on such beliefs. And with that in mind, it would seem that there are many in the Muslim community who sympathise with ISIS (perhaps keeping in mind that an ISIS sympathiser might be more willing to act on their underlying beliefs for a number of reasons)

Promise an uneducated drug dealer heaven, if he murders x people, in the name of God, he'll do it. Well that's obviously a gross simplification - I don't think you can go to a random drug dealer, and promise that, and they'd join you like that, buthopefully you get the just

You are undoubtedly correct. Many of the Brits in the ISIS ranks are deeply troubled individuals, and you are right to point out that it would be an easy sell to say to these people who have never felt special in their lives, that they will be great warriors on a grand adventure to create a utopia.

Also, a lot of Muslims distrust the police - especially so in the USA...

There are many intersectional issues there. Some of it relates to class and socio-economic background (almost all people from underclass and marginalised backgrounds distrust the police and many Muslims fit into that socio-economic category).

However, it's also fair to say that many White British / Anglo British people from the working and underclass end up as squaddies and join the forces. But that's far too big an issue for me to tackle on this thread, I happily throw up my hands there and say, another time.

Googling that headline doesn't really bring up any reliable sources either (No idea how reliable/biased newsweek is)

Well it is public knowledge that there are about 600 Muslims in the UK Armed Forces. The figure bandied about is that there are 500 British Muslims in ISIS. So we know that whatever the exact figures, let's say conservatively that there are about as many British Muslims in ISIS as in the Armed Forces.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 14

The_Internet

20

Original post by young_guns

I see it somewhat differently. I think the point here is that, taking into account all 2.7 million Muslims in Britain, there are more Muslims who are willing to join a murderous fascist organisation than there are Muslims willing to join the Armed Forces of the island which is their home (and, for many, their birthplace).

I find it troubling that there are so few Muslims in our Armed Forces, and that must speak to and reflect on broader attitudes in the Muslim community. I would hope many more Muslims would feel that the British Army is their army too. That it protects all our people. I am concerned when some Muslims feel that their politico-religious affiliations to Muslims in other parts of the world overrides their connection to the island-state which is their home :frown:

You are undoubtedly correct. Many of the Brits in the ISIS ranks are deeply troubled individuals, and you are right to point out that it would be an easy sell to say to these people who have never felt special in their lives, that they will be great warriors on a grand adventure to create a utopia.

There are many intersectional issues there. Some of it relates to class and socio-economic background (almost all people from underclass and marginalised backgrounds distrust the police and many Muslims fit into that socio-economic category).

However, it's also fair to say that many White British / Anglo British people from the working and underclass end up as squaddies and join the forces. But that's far too big an issue for me to tackle on this thread, I happily throw up my hands there and say, another time.

Well it is public knowledge that there are about 600 Muslims in the UK Armed Forces. The figure bandied about is that there are 500 British Muslims in ISIS. So we know that whatever the exact figures, let's say conservatively that there are about as many British Muslims in ISIS as in the Armed Forces.

I think you make a fair point. What I do think is, that a lot of people see that because Britain is at war, in Muslim nations, a lot of Muslims immediately think that Britain is at war with Islam. That's the last thing we want. We don't want to be at war with a major religion... But I think that's what creates some resentment, and people being more willing to fight "with their Muslim brothers" for a fight that they believe is targeted at their faith, as opposed to other reasons why the gov't sends fighters out

Reply 15

Original post by missfats

I know I would but only if we take strict measures in ensuring isreali innocent civilians are protected and spared

Posted from TSR Mobile

And once Israel had been conquered what would you do to its civilian population? And specifically the Mizrahi Jews (desceneded from refugees who were the Jewish communities in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, etc who make up a majority of Israeli Jews)?

Would they have a right of return to Iraq, Yemen, Syria etc?

Reply 16

Exon

Original post by Badshah

It's wrong to fight for Isis but why would we fight for the British army... a non Muslim army of a non Muslim country?

Is this because you see the British army as an enemy as well?

Reply 17

missfats

Original post by young_guns

And once Israel had been conquered what would you do to its civilian population? And specifically the Mizrahi Jews (desceneded from refugees who were the Jewish communities in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, etc who make up a majority of Israeli Jews)?

Would they have a right of return to Iraq, Yemen, Syria etc?

As you yourself has highlighted they are 'refugees', they either take refuge in "Palestine" (not isreal) and try to live in peaceful means in thier lands or Move to other lands which are willing to provide them with refuge.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 18