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Reply 1
Original post by biggronn
i noticed people stab others to death and receive 5 or 6 years

one dude told me his friend got 3 years for first degree murder

plus ive read many news articles and met uk folks

is there history to this?

are the prisons full so they only want the big fish?



Minimum sentence for Murder in the UK is 10 years, which means they would serve 5 years with good behaviour. Even then this lenient of a sentence can only be applied to people aged between 10-17.

Adults have to serve a minimum of 15 years for murder (so 7.5 years with good behaviour).

I would argue that the reason the UK prisons are so full, is because our prison sentences are too long.
Original post by biggronn
i noticed people stab others to death and receive 5 or 6 years

one dude told me his friend got 3 years for first degree murder

plus ive read many news articles and met uk folks

is there history to this?

are the prisons full so they only want the big fish?


I live in the UK and there's no history that I know of. My mum used to work at a prison too and apparently its really good conditions in there, like a cheap hotel. They still only have the 1 room etc but they can 'work' for things like TVs and game consoles. Some homeless people have even committed a crime to have some where nicer to sleep! It's awful! The justice system is so much better in other countries.
Reply 3
Original post by Punk_Rock_Socks
I live in the UK and there's no history that I know of. My mum used to work at a prison too and apparently its really good conditions in there, like a cheap hotel. They still only have the 1 room etc but they can 'work' for things like TVs and game consoles. Some homeless people have even committed a crime to have some where nicer to sleep! It's awful! The justice system is so much better in other countries.


It depends if you want a justice system whose main focus is on rehabilitating people back in to society or one that punishes them for law breaking.

Countries who focus heavily on rehabilitation such as Norway, and Sweden have much lower rates of re-offending compared to countries that focus on punishment such as the US.
I have this idea that a lot of European thinking is rooted in the Christian Bible and that even as Europe becomes more secular, the general preoccupation with redemption (or in the criminal justice system, 'rehabilitation') is why such weak sentences remain. I'm genuinely sympathetic towards people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds who commit crimes such as theft, but I really don't see the point is even trying to reform murderers and rapists etc.
Original post by biggronn


one dude told me his friend got 3 years for first degree murder



Total bull****.
Original post by Drowzy
It depends if you want a justice system whose main focus is on rehabilitating people back in to society or one that punishes them for law breaking.

Countries who focus heavily on rehabilitation such as Norway, and Sweden have much lower rates of re-offending compared to countries that focus on punishment such as the US.


I think there needs to be a happy medium between the two if you know what I mean? Unfortunately, from what I've seen anyway, theres not enough punishment for breaking the law in the first place. If you went to prison and you had an uncomfortable bed and average school-canteen-like food, there isn't as high of a chance that you're gonna wanna go back again.

Jobs in prisons are great! I think that aspect of it is spot on. But there needs to also be a threat there too rather than just basically 'I can't get a job in society so I'll break the law and then I get a place to sleep too' :smile:
[video="youtube;1urLh8Kh_9A"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1urLh8Kh_9A[/video]

UK is not the only stupid system. 65 YEARS for punching a woman officer in the face -_-
I saw some people who killed some dogs and some other horrors only got a few years. Clearly had problems.
You could see this guy just didn't want to go to jail so tried his best to avoid it but the freaks made the dogs suffer and other horrendous **** and got 1/10 or even less :frown:
Reply 8
Why did I come I'm hear thinking this was going to be related to literacy?

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Reply 9
Original post by Greenlaner
Total bull****.


you cant prove its bull**** so take a seat buddy
Reply 10
Original post by Punk_Rock_Socks
I live in the UK and there's no history that I know of. My mum used to work at a prison too and apparently its really good conditions in there, like a cheap hotel. They still only have the 1 room etc but they can 'work' for things like TVs and game consoles. Some homeless people have even committed a crime to have some where nicer to sleep! It's awful! The justice system is so much better in other countries.


wow crazy stuff
Reply 11
Original post by Drowzy
It depends if you want a justice system whose main focus is on rehabilitating people back in to society or one that punishes them for law breaking.

Countries who focus heavily on rehabilitation such as Norway, and Sweden have much lower rates of re-offending compared to countries that focus on punishment such as the US.


but statistics show many criminals reoffend the uk because of the rehabilitation

so do you think the uk should change to punishment?
Reply 12
Original post by biggronn
but statistics show many criminals reoffend the uk because of the rehabilitation

so do you think the uk should change to punishment?


Punishment is far less effective at reducing recidivism than rehabilitation. If people are offending because of rehabilitation then either the methods used need to be increased, and or improved,

America, and Russia are prime examples of a systems based on punishment. Both countries have far higher rates of recidivism than most if not all other countries.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 13
Original post by yo radical one
I have this idea that a lot of European thinking is rooted in the Christian Bible and that even as Europe becomes more secular, the general preoccupation with redemption (or in the criminal justice system, 'rehabilitation') is why such weak sentences remain. I'm genuinely sympathetic towards people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds who commit crimes such as theft, but I really don't see the point is even trying to reform murderers and rapists etc.


possibly
Reply 14
Original post by Drowzy
Punishment is far less effective at reducing recidivism than rehabilitation. If people are offending because of rehabilitation then either the methods used need to be increased, and or improved,

America, and Russia are prime examples of a systems based on punishment. Both countries have far higher rates of recidivism than most if not all other countries.


ok thats true
Original post by Drowzy
Adults have to serve a minimum of 15 years for murder (so 7.5 years with good behaviour).


Incorrect.

Early release would not apply to a murder conviction. The judge would set a minimum tariff - the starting point being around 15 years. This is the earliest point at which the prisoner can be considered for release on license.

Prison sentences are actually quite stiff in the UK compared to other European countries.
Reply 16
Original post by InnerTemple
Incorrect.

Early release would not apply to a murder conviction. The judge would set a minimum tariff - the starting point being around 15 years. This is the earliest point at which the prisoner can be considered for release on license.

Prison sentences are actually quite stiff in the UK compared to other European countries.


You're right, I assumed that half remission was universal.
Original post by Drowzy
Punishment is far less effective at reducing recidivism than rehabilitation. If people are offending because of rehabilitation then either the methods used need to be increased, and or improved,

America, and Russia are prime examples of a systems based on punishment. Both countries have far higher rates of recidivism than most if not all other countries.


This is such bad scientific thinking.

Russia and America have much more poverty and deprivation than the UK, equally Saudi Arabia has a relatively low crime rate so I could easily argue that from that, a tough stance on crime works.
Original post by yo radical one
This is such bad scientific thinking.

Russia and America have much more poverty and deprivation than the UK, equally Saudi Arabia has a relatively low crime rate so I could easily argue that from that, a tough stance on crime works.


It wouldn't be a terribly easy argument. The way crimes are reported in Countries like Saudi Arabia is hit and miss.

In fact, comparisons with different countries has always been troublesome - even between those which have fairly good track records of reporting. This is because they will all report their crimes and hold data in a different way. Even looking at historic murder rates in the UK is difficult when you go back beyond 1998(ish) because we changed the way we categorised a murder.

You really have to look at a bigger picture which takes into account society and human behaviour.
Original post by InnerTemple
It wouldn't be a terribly easy argument. The way crimes are reported in Countries like Saudi Arabia is hit and miss.

In fact, comparisons with different countries has always been troublesome - even between those which have fairly good track records of reporting. This is because they will all report their crimes and hold data in a different way. Even looking at historic murder rates in the UK is difficult when you go back beyond 1998(ish) because we changed the way we categorised a murder.

You really have to look at a bigger picture which takes into account society and human behaviour.


I agree I would never make that argument in a serious way.


However I was trying to illustrate the point that comparing the crime rate of the UK with that of Russia and the US, and claiming there is a difference and that difference is due to the difference of approach is beyond retarded and that comparisons which are essentially the same but give the opposite conclusion, are just as valid.

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