Elitism: should private schools be abolished?

Well you're still working on the assumption of innate intelligence. The fact is that rigorous education improves people's abilities. If you don't think education makes people smarter, I don't know why you support the education system at all.

And while there is an issue of spoon-feeding (shown by the comparisons of privately and state educated undergraduates), to deny that private school pupils are not more able is ridiculous. You honestly think spoon-feeding is the reason that top Public schools get about 50% A* at A-Level? You really think that if you put a randomly selected group of teenagers in those schools, rather than the selective intake they already have, you'd get the same outcome? And do you honestly not think that private schools provide a better education than state schools?

Again, you're still working under the false assumption that intelligence can be separated out from experience and education. More education makes people smarter, this is born out by evidence and plain common sense.

Intelligence is not purely innate. Until you accept that, you will keep drawing false conclusions.

Where is the evidence to suggest that those who attend a private school are distinct in terms of intelligence than their cohort who attend state schools?

So you think some people are genetically superior?
Sounds like a certain A. Hitler

I disagree with your general stance, bit too 'social Darwinist' for me.

Some people are born faster, some people are born stronger, some people are born better looking than others all due to genetics. I don't see why some people also can't be born naturally more intelligent than their peers. You can spout as many politically correct views as you want but at the end of the day you'll never be able to make everyone "equal" just as I'll never be able to run as fast as Usain Bolt. Nature will always correct itself and the naturally more intelligent children will rise above the rest, especially if you've done everything to suppress other factors which may cause academic success. Then those intelligent pupils will make more money, marry within their new social class and produce above IQ children who will also succeed.

Then after a few generations the plebs will complain that this new social class is unfairly privileged and this will cause a revolution. The high IQ social class will be killed off but without them modern society will collapse. The lesser intelligent members of society left will forever spend their existence trying to figure out how a toilet works and Idiocracy will have been reached.

Now I ask you. Was it all worth it?

I'm not aware of studies that explicitly measure this. However, there are certainly studies that show children with higher SES have higher IQ. And privately educated pupils clearly have higher SES. It's not exactly a huge leap of logic.

But the crucial thing is the quality of education, not the intake. This is certainly less clear-cut. But the basis of abolishing private schools is that they provide an unfair advantage. If they don't, the entire debate is moot.

Absolutely it is. I was the worlds laziest pupil at school, but with the spoon feeding and one-on-one attention I was given, I waltzed away with straight As. I would have had to have been clinically retarded not to. Most private school pupils are too delusional to admit what a ridiculous level of advantage they received.

But this "old-boys network" originates largely from people going to the same (private) schools. Therefore, the most appropriate way to dismantle these networks is to abolish private schools. Also. you seem to be suggesting that the poor are only in this position because they're lazy or don't know the value of hard work. This ignores so much.

Absolutely it is. I was the worlds laziest pupil at school, but with the spoon feeding and one-on-one attention I was given, I waltzed away with straight As. I would have had to have been clinically retarded not to. Most private school pupils are too delusional to admit what a ridiculous level of advantage they received.

Most scientists understand that there is not really such thing as intelligence anyway, whether innate or learnt. Its a poorly defined and ulitmately pointless concept.

The education system in general makes people better informed citizens, and prepares them for the world of work. The private education system in specific also gives additional coaching to help pupils do better in exams and appear smarter and better educated than they actually are, so that they are able to take positions at university or in employement that they do not deserve by merit alone. its basically an unfair leg-up in life. This is what private schools sell and what the parents to pay for.

We must acknowledge that IQ isn't a perfect measure of intelligence, not by a long shot. But I would be a fool to deny that as wealth increases, IQ is also seen to rise. The Flynn effect documents this well. Arguably, we could assume the same would be documented if those born into a lower SES were conferred the same advantages as those born into a higher SES. Intelligence is probably determined by both genetic and environmental factors.

The argument about intelligence being genetic is one I've just been having. As I have argued, a large part of where you end up is determined by how wealthy your parents are and whether they can afford to send you to private school so that you will be favoured over others.

There was recently a piece of research in the news that found top (most high-paying - e.g. judges) jobs to be filled by people who had attended Oxbridge and/or very exclusive independent schools. Anyway, I saw an article this morning suggesting that the solution to this was to abolish private schools (like Eton) altogether as the majority of those who attended Oxbridge went to private schools - and a few in particular. Here it is (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-elitism-grips-the-top-of-british-society-to-this-extent-there-is-only-one-answer-abolish-private-schools-9696813.html)


I just wondered what people's opinions on this might be? Personally I think this would definitely make things a lot fairer as private schools, I think, allow the class system to continue and allow those from the most privileged backgrounds to have access to top unis (and therefore top jobs) What does everyone else think?

You can't abolish all private schools because some of them are used badly. That's like abolishing banks due to the 2008 banking crisis. It's a ridiculously over-the-top response. It's like banning hammers because someone used one as a weapon. Just because something is misused, doesn't mean you should ban it. You should attempt to prevent it being misused.

Clearly private schools provide the best education in the country; thus non-private schools should be abolished.

You seem to not be aware of the massive differences in ability of various pupils. The differences in attainment based on SES clearly show that even when people are given comparable educations, some people simply don't perform at the same level. It's you who seems to be blinkered by your private school education into thinking everyone could be as able as you. Some children simply don't have the ability, whatever the reasons. You're suffering from the intelligent man's mistake in thinking that other people are as able as yourself.

You talk as if this is the only effect of private education, as if it only inflates grades and otherwise does not provide a different education. You need only spend a day in a comprehensive and a day at Eton to know that this is a ridiculous statement.

There is an element of spoon-feeding, but honestly if this effect is pronounced, it's up to employers and universities to take it into consideration by expecting more from private schools pupils, or treating their qualifications as inflated. I'd also argue that an interview could quickly discover whether someone's intelligence was inflated or whether they were actually performing at that level.


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There was recently a piece of research in the news that found top (most high-paying - e.g. judges) jobs to be filled by people who had attended Oxbridge and/or very exclusive independent schools. Anyway, I saw an article this morning suggesting that the solution to this was to abolish private schools (like Eton) altogether as the majority of those who attended Oxbridge went to private schools - and a few in particular. Here it is (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-elitism-grips-the-top-of-british-society-to-this-extent-there-is-only-one-answer-abolish-private-schools-9696813.html)


I just wondered what people's opinions on this might be? Personally I think this would definitely make things a lot fairer as private schools, I think, allow the class system to continue and allow those from the most privileged backgrounds to have access to top unis (and therefore top jobs) What does everyone else think?

And how would you do that? Maybe employers should have a quota for the amount of privately schooled people they employ?

Oxford is 58% state school and Cambridge is 62%. They are not majority private school.

And everyone should have to pay vast amounts to simply receive an education? This would lead to the huge widening of the gap between the rich and the poor. You must be joking because what you're suggesting is absolutely ridiculous.

i did not suggest that all schools should charge Eton style fees; clearly there would be a sliding scale from Chavdale Upper School: motto "Where ambition is a four letter word"
to Charterhouse: motto "Deo Dante Dei"

I am aware that there are massive differences in ability, all I am saying is that if you took the same child, cloned him, sent one to private school and one to comprehensive school. the one that went to private school would get better grades in his exams BUT would not actually have any greater aptitude for work. Hence the well documented fact that private school students tend to do worse at university - its because they've all got into courses that are too hard to them, based on grades they don't really deserve!

Yes, or we could just change the examination system to have the same effect.

For example a state school pupil might needs 70% to get an A, but a private school pupil 80%.

Interviews are just as susceptible to spoonfeeding and coaching as exams. We were given rigorous interview prep where we were videoed and had our answers played back to us and analysed and were given a series of scripted answers to memorise.