The Fappening, victim blaming, and personal responsibility.
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Original post by Truths
The biggest problem I have with this whole victim blaming is that, the cloud system has an automatic backup, and I'm sure none of them intentionally uploaded it. And even if they did, it's password protected. Being a celebrity does not give the general public a permit to break into your home and steal your possessions and then have the audacity to say "You should have hidden it better". And that's essentially what it is, your emails are password protected, as is your home is protected by a lock.
It doesn't matter. If a hacker went into your emails and leaked everything whether you deemed it to be embarrassing or not, you wouldn't expect people to tell you "you should take steps to prevent invasions of privacy" and don't have personal information in a private, password protected email.
It doesn't matter. If a hacker went into your emails and leaked everything whether you deemed it to be embarrassing or not, you wouldn't expect people to tell you "you should take steps to prevent invasions of privacy" and don't have personal information in a private, password protected email.
If I was a celebrity, I wouldn't send anything over the internet that I wasn't at least somewhat prepared to have leaked to the public. My email account has been hacked before, and I'm a nobody. It's general common sense when using the web.
As for the cloud drive, this is a feature that can be deactivated, and most iPhone users I know are aware of it. Even so, if I was a celebrity, taking compromising pictures of myself with my internet-connected smartphone isn't something I would choose to do. Again, it's not their fault, and the hackers certainly weren't entitled to it, but taking pictures like that is risky business and they likely knew it - we've seen leaks like this countless times before.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Truths
A password, is a lock. So ChaoticButterfly's analogy is perfect.
Some locks are better than others, just like some passwords are better than others. Easily guessed/common password is as good as leaving the key in the lock or just not bothering to lock your door, despite having one.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Dandaman1
If I was a celebrity, I wouldn't send anything over the internet that I wasn't at least somewhat prepared to have leaked to the public. My email account has been hacked before, and I'm a nobody. It's general common sense when using the web.
As for the cloud drive, this is a feature that can be deactivated, and most iPhone users I know are aware of it. Even so, if I was a celebrity, taking compromising pictures of myself with my internet-connected smartphone isn't something I would choose to do. Again, it's not their fault, and the hackers certainly weren't entitled to it, but taking pictures like that is risky business and they likely knew it - we've seen leaks like this countless times before.
As for the cloud drive, this is a feature that can be deactivated, and most iPhone users I know are aware of it. Even so, if I was a celebrity, taking compromising pictures of myself with my internet-connected smartphone isn't something I would choose to do. Again, it's not their fault, and the hackers certainly weren't entitled to it, but taking pictures like that is risky business and they likely knew it - we've seen leaks like this countless times before.
You continue to exclaim that it's not their fault yet you and many other people have put a lot of focus on the victim and what "they should've/could've done". Not everyone is as aware on how iCloud works as you may be. I still don't really understand my own account and what and what is not being uploaded. But deleted pictures as old as 5 years, have risen to the surface. Popular belief is that celebrities shouldn't take nudes, I find that unfair. These leaks were not even a case of sexting, these were photos taken for ones own private enjoyment or relationship. This is no different than breaking into someones home, going through their locked draws, stealing nude polariods and uploading them for the masses.
Original post by Tabris
Some locks are better than others, just like some passwords are better than others. Easily guessed/common password is as good as leaving the key in the lock or just not bothering to lock your door, despite having one.
Yeh... no. Guessing the password would have been one of the last ways they found access to the iCloud accounts.
Original post by Truths
Yeh... no. Guessing the password would have been one of the last ways they found access to the iCloud accounts.
That doesn't change that some passwords are better than others and that some locks are more secure than others, or that the previous analogy wasn't as perfect as you said. A bad or insecure lock is as good as not having a lock.
Feel free to move the goalposts some more.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Truths
You continue to exclaim that it's not their fault yet you and many other people have put a lot of focus on the victim and what "they should've/could've done". Not everyone is as aware on how iCloud works as you may be. I still don't really understand my own account and what and what is not being uploaded. But deleted pictures as old as 5 years, have risen to the surface. Popular belief is that celebrities shouldn't take nudes, I find that unfair. These leaks were not even a case of sexting, these were photos taken for ones own private enjoyment or relationship. This is no different than breaking into someones home, going through their locked draws, stealing nude polariods and uploading them for the masses.
Yeh... no. Guessing the password would have been one of the last ways they found access to the iCloud accounts.
Yeh... no. Guessing the password would have been one of the last ways they found access to the iCloud accounts.
The main underlying message of my post was that saying somebody could/should have done X to prevent Y is not the same as saying Y was their fault, therefore the reaction of "But it was the perpetrators fault!" isn't very bright, as nobody suggested it wasn't the perpetrator's fault in the first place.
Should celebrities take nudes? If they want to, they're welcome to it. However, especially in light of these occurrences, they (and we) should keep in mind that digital photos in the internet age are potentially very vulnerable, and it isn't wrong to suggest public figures be more cautious of such things (see above).
Original post by blue n white army
The way I see it, celebrities have chosen to live their lives in the public eye, with this fame and fortune comes people who want to know every single little detail about their lives especially naked shots. Whilst the majority of people would love to see kate upton naked most would not break the law to do so however these celebrities should expect that there will be people out there willing to do anything to get hold of these shots, why give them what they want by backing up to the cloud?
I agree with you, there is a view these days that if someone is 100% in the wrong with their actions then that absolves the victims of all responsibility to prevent it. If someone stole my TV and playstation, they would be in the wrong but I think it would be perfectly fair for someone to say "In the future i wouldnt leave the front door wide open"
If a woman walks home late at night and takes a short cut through "rape alley" (nicknamed based on past events) she has, by her own actions, increased her chances of being raped, there's no disputing that (the attacker is still the one in the wrong). However you can't point this out through fear of being lynched.
I agree with you, there is a view these days that if someone is 100% in the wrong with their actions then that absolves the victims of all responsibility to prevent it. If someone stole my TV and playstation, they would be in the wrong but I think it would be perfectly fair for someone to say "In the future i wouldnt leave the front door wide open"
If a woman walks home late at night and takes a short cut through "rape alley" (nicknamed based on past events) she has, by her own actions, increased her chances of being raped, there's no disputing that (the attacker is still the one in the wrong). However you can't point this out through fear of being lynched.
Totally agree with you! In a perfect world we'd all be able to leave our doors unlocked and not worry about getting robbed, etc, but we don't live in a perfect world, so everyone has to be responsible for themselves and minimise risks. But as you say, that would be victim blaming.
I'm tired of arguing. Lets be honest with ourselves here, people are only trying to shift responsibility onto the victims and celebrities because deep down, they appreciate hackers catering to their shameful, horny, voyeuristic vices. When the phone hacking scandal blew up, we weren't ridiculing celebrities for sharing private information via "third party servers they do not own" and "weak passwords". But when sex is involved, especially for women, we have a proclamation to inculpate the victim. And that's the way it has always been. You can not deny the immediate bias.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Truths
I'm tired of arguing. Lets be honest with ourselves here, people are only trying to shift responsibility onto the victims and celebrities because deep down, they appreciate hackers catering to their shameful, horny, voyeuristic vices. When the phone hacking scandal blew up, we weren't ridiculing celebrities for sharing private information via "third party servers they do not own" and "weak passwords". But when sex is involved, especially for women, we have a proclamation to inculpate the victim. And that's the way it has always been.
Ugh... this response is so you.
Original post by Truths
You continue to exclaim that it's not their fault yet you and many other people have put a lot of focus on the victim and what "they should've/could've done".
Why is that a problem?
1] It isn't the fault of the celebrities, the hackers were totally unjustified in their actions.
2] The images would have been much harder/impossible to access if the celebrities hadn't created or uploaded these images in the first place.
Which of these statements do you think is untrue?
Not everyone is as aware on how iCloud works as you may be. I still don't really understand my own account and what and what is not being uploaded. But deleted pictures as old as 5 years, have risen to the surface. Popular belief is that celebrities shouldn't take nudes, I find that unfair.
Why is that unfair? I'm not a celebrity, nobody knows who I am, and I'm sure nobody even wants to see naked pictures of me, but I wouldn't allow nude photos of myself to even exist, let alone be uploaded anywhere on the internet. It's not some great deprivation, it's just being cautious.
These leaks were not even a case of sexting, these were photos taken for ones own private enjoyment or relationship. This is no different than breaking into someones home, going through their locked draws, stealing nude polariods and uploading them for the masses.
Morally, it's no different. But it's different in the sense that, people often underestimate how easy it is to steal information via hacking, as well as how likely it is that someone will try to do it.
Yeh... no. Guessing the password would have been one of the last ways they found access to the iCloud accounts.
What makes you think that? By far the easiest way to hack into any account is to find out the password somehow, or the answers to secret questions etc. Those dramatised scenarios where some nerd has lines of green code flowing down his computer screen and hacks it by some ingenious computer science skills are much less common.
Original post by Truths
I'm tired of arguing. Lets be honest with ourselves here, people are only trying to shift responsibility onto the victims and celebrities because deep down, they appreciate hackers catering to their shameful, horny, voyeuristic vices. When the phone hacking scandal blew up, we weren't ridiculing celebrities for sharing private information via "third party servers they do not own" and "weak passwords". But when sex is involved, especially for women, we have a proclamation to inculpate the victim. And that's the way it has always been. You can not deny the immediate bias.
Let's be honest, not once has anyone on this thread said that it is the victim's fault. People have said over and over again that it is not the victims fault, that it is the perpetrators fault, and that suggesting sensible precautions that the victim could have taken does not make it the victim's fault.
After saying all this, how can you possibly still continue to bleat that everyone is blaming the victim? It simply isn't true, and you know it perfectly well.
Original post by tazarooni89
What makes you think that? By far the easiest way to hack into any account is to find out the password somehow, or the answers to secret questions etc. Those dramatised scenarios where some nerd has lines of green code flowing down his computer screen and hacks it by some ingenious computer science skills are much less common.
What makes you think that? By far the easiest way to hack into any account is to find out the password somehow, or the answers to secret questions etc. Those dramatised scenarios where some nerd has lines of green code flowing down his computer screen and hacks it by some ingenious computer science skills are much less common.
Because they would need the email address too.
And do read my last post and explain to me why the double standard exists between the attitudes to phone hacking and leaking nudes?
Original post by Truths
Because they would need the email address too.
It's even easier to find out other people's e-mail addresses than their passwords. For someone who is able to discover a password, an email address is not much of a problem.
And do read my last post and explain to me why the double standard exists between the attitudes to phone hacking and leaking nudes?
I don't think there is a double standard in attitudes. I'm sure we'd happily say that it is sensible to avoid sharing sensitive information via text, voicemail, or any other stored/recorded medium if you can avoid it. And if you must share it this way, it is sensible to be aware of the risk that the wrong person might find them, and to use methods which are secure, proportional to how sensitive that information is.
My profession involves handling the price-sensitive, financial information of various companies. It's extremely confidential. If I ever shared that information via text message, or uploaded it to cloud storage, I'd be sacked for my stupidity and I'd never work in that profession again. On the other hand, if I were sharing romantic messages with someone, I'd share that by text, because even though I don't really want other people seeing them, it's not that big a deal if they do.
The real double standard is that nobody calls "victim blaming" in response to these kinds of statements, which we get from banks and security firms all the time. They're not controversial and nobody makes a big deal of it.
With this nude photos leak, the photos had actually been deleted from the phone but hackers hacked into icloud to get them. You can't blame the celebrities involved for that, they thought everything was secure.
Let's have some fun analogies to explain.
Someone hacks into a bank account and steals money from it. Is it the account owner's fault for having the money in there?
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
Most victims are people who have taken reasonable steps to keep themselves safe and secure from the problem they became victims of. But you can't prepare for every possible situation - I'm not going to hire armed bodyguards to guard my house 24/7 just in case professional criminals happen to descend on the rural village I live in. I also expect to be able to use my own phone without it being hacked and having things stolen from it.
"Victim blaming" is acceptable where the victims partly contributed to the problem by not taking appropriate measures, like people who get robbed because their house was unlocked while they were out. But often victim blaming happens to people who have been responsible but like most normal people simply haven't been able to (or wanted to) plan for every single possible eventuality.
Let's have some fun analogies to explain.
Someone hacks into a bank account and steals money from it. Is it the account owner's fault for having the money in there?
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
Most victims are people who have taken reasonable steps to keep themselves safe and secure from the problem they became victims of. But you can't prepare for every possible situation - I'm not going to hire armed bodyguards to guard my house 24/7 just in case professional criminals happen to descend on the rural village I live in. I also expect to be able to use my own phone without it being hacked and having things stolen from it.
"Victim blaming" is acceptable where the victims partly contributed to the problem by not taking appropriate measures, like people who get robbed because their house was unlocked while they were out. But often victim blaming happens to people who have been responsible but like most normal people simply haven't been able to (or wanted to) plan for every single possible eventuality.
Original post by tazarooni89
Let's be honest, not once has anyone on this thread said that it is the victim's fault. People have said over and over again that it is not the victims fault, that it is the perpetrators fault, and that suggesting sensible precautions that the victim could have taken does not make it the victim's fault.
After saying all this, how can you possibly still continue to bleat that everyone is blaming the victim? It simply isn't true, and you know it perfectly well.
After saying all this, how can you possibly still continue to bleat that everyone is blaming the victim? It simply isn't true, and you know it perfectly well.
I never once used the word, "blaming" in that post or the part you chose to bold. I only used the language of the actual OP TITLE, which is "personal responsibility". So the question still stands, why was no one talking about "personal responsibility" when private phone calls were recorded and exploited in the name journalism, but when private sexual pictures and videos are recorded and leaked for entertainment there is such a thing as" personal responsibility"? I'm listening?
Original post by RFowler
Someone hacks into a bank account and steals money from it. Is it the account owner's fault for having the money in there?
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
The difference is that, the precaution of "not having a car in case it gets stolen" is far too inconvenient, compared to the likelihood that it actually will get stolen, for it to be worth it. If your vehicle gets stolen, you'll have to walk to work. But if you don't have a car in the first place, you'll still have to walk to work (but instead of the risk that your car gets stolen, it'll be the risk that the money you've saved gets stolen). So the precaution doesn't make you that much better off anyway.
However, when you're a celebrity, you know very well that people can and do try to hack your accounts. The risk is not as small as it is for everyone else. This is hardly the first time it has happened to celebrities. Plus, "not uploading naked pictures of yourself to the internet" is not a difficult or unreasonable thing to do; most people manage it just fine. So in this case, the precaution is a lot more reasonable compared to the risk it's designed to mitigate.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Truths
I never once used the word, "blaming" in that post or the part you chose to bold. I only used the language of the actual OP TITLE, which is "personal responsibility".
I never once used the word, "blaming" in that post or the part you chose to bold. I only used the language of the actual OP TITLE, which is "personal responsibility".
I believe you used the phrase "inculpate the victim", which is essentially the same thing.
So the question still stands, why was no one talking about "personal responsibility" when private phone calls were recorded and exploited in the name journalism, but when private sexual pictures and videos are recorded and leaked for entertainment there is such a thing as" personal responsibility"? I'm listening?
Your question was answered in my last post.
Original post by Truths
A password, is a lock. So ChaoticButterfly's analogy is perfect.
Original post by RFowler
With this nude photos leak, the photos had actually been deleted from the phone but hackers hacked into icloud to get them. You can't blame the celebrities involved for that, they thought everything was secure.
Let's have some fun analogies to explain.
Someone hacks into a bank account and steals money from it. Is it the account owner's fault for having the money in there?
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
Most victims are people who have taken reasonable steps to keep themselves safe and secure from the problem they became victims of. But you can't prepare for every possible situation - I'm not going to hire armed bodyguards to guard my house 24/7 just in case professional criminals happen to descend on the rural village I live in. I also expect to be able to use my own phone without it being hacked and having things stolen from it.
"Victim blaming" is acceptable where the victims partly contributed to the problem by not taking appropriate measures, like people who get robbed because their house was unlocked while they were out. But often victim blaming happens to people who have been responsible but like most normal people simply haven't been able to (or wanted to) plan for every single possible eventuality.
Let's have some fun analogies to explain.
Someone hacks into a bank account and steals money from it. Is it the account owner's fault for having the money in there?
My locked car is stolen from a garage - is it my fault for having the car?
Some livestock are stolen from a field - is it the farmer's fault for having the animals?
etc.
Most victims are people who have taken reasonable steps to keep themselves safe and secure from the problem they became victims of. But you can't prepare for every possible situation - I'm not going to hire armed bodyguards to guard my house 24/7 just in case professional criminals happen to descend on the rural village I live in. I also expect to be able to use my own phone without it being hacked and having things stolen from it.
"Victim blaming" is acceptable where the victims partly contributed to the problem by not taking appropriate measures, like people who get robbed because their house was unlocked while they were out. But often victim blaming happens to people who have been responsible but like most normal people simply haven't been able to (or wanted to) plan for every single possible eventuality.
Owning a car, having a bank account and owning livestock are necessities the risk them being stolen is something you have to live with and cant really be negated.
Taking naked photos and storing them on the internet is not a necessity. As a celebrity, they should know that a naked photo is gold dust to many people so by first taking them and then storing them on a cloud based server they have not taken all reasonable precautions to prevent naked photos of them being spread around. You'd be surprised how many people struggle through on a daily basis without taking naked photos.
Rubbish, same kind of attitude that has people say girls who wear revealing clothes have themselves to blame if they are the victim of sexual assault.
People should not have to curtail their decisions based on the scum in the world with no moral integrity.
People should not have to curtail their decisions based on the scum in the world with no moral integrity.
Original post by tazarooni89
People have said over and over again that it is not the victims fault, that it is the perpetrators fault, and that suggesting sensible precautions that the victim could have taken does not make it the victim's fault.
This.
When somebody has their information stolen from a third party, it is not the fault of the victim, but it's a folly to assume that your data is completely secure and not try to make it as hard as possible for would-be intruders to access such data, just in case someone does try. It's simply being cautious.
As such, I use a minimum of 15 character passwords with a random assortment of upper/lower case letters, numbers and symbols. The same goes for my "safe questions" which are entirely unrelated to what they ask for. Outside of a security exploit on the side of the service provider, the chances of anything of my most personal data being breached is unlikely. Who's going to try to actively try to hack stuff like my emails? Nobody, I'd hope. It does not mean that I'm going to be using "password" or "12345" as my passwords any time soon, but, on the chance that somebody does try, they're going to need something in the region of a trillion years or a quantum computer if they want to bruteforce my passwords.
I've always been of the opinion that anybody who willingly hands over the data to a third party shouldn't assume that it's secure anyway, especially with mythical cloud backup systems that companies try to pedal these days. A part of this is the fault of such service providers, because they either don't describe the extent to which their services operate, tout them as infallible (even if that is technically true since human error is a huge factor), or in the case of some operators back up your data without even telling you. I have never and will never knowingly use a service like iCloud, because they do back up everything and haven't always had clear policies on data retention. Stuff I choose to be backed up in a Dropbox folder? Fine. Anything and everything on my phone? Not a chance.
There is always going to be a degree of human error, even the most secure person will slip up somewhere, or there will be services that back up your data without you knowing at all. But the point is that people should make it their business to know as much as possible and do as much as possible, within the constraints of what is achievable for them, especially when it comes to personal data, so that they can at least say that I've tried to do as much as I can. If there is something like a system exploit on the part of a service provider, then that's tough titties, unfortunately.
It's easy to say this from my position, but if I was a celebrity, even if I didn't know what I do. I would like to think that I'd understand my position in the public eye and put even more effort into making sure what is private, stays private. If this involves hiring somebody to make it fool-proof or as easy as possible for me, then that's what I'd do.
I don't really care too much for celebrity culture, but the one thing I am genuinely glad about this whole affair, is that it might get people in the future to actually read the fine print and look what they're signing up for. I'm sure thousands, if not millions of people have their nude photos backed up on iCloud or a similar service. Maybe this will get them to think a little. In the information age, data is king. It's completely cuckoo that people think they can create some perfect culture where nobody is willing to take advantage of this. It isn't victim blaming to say that people should have been more careful, it'd be like walking into a conflict zone thinking you won't be harmed, getting shot and accusing others of victim blaming when people tell you that you should have thought about the possibility of being shot at before going.
Do whatever you want, celebrity or otherwise, just don't think that anything is safer than offline physical storage that you keep for yourself, especially in this day and age when the Internet connects everybody. It's like that old saying, the most secure computer is one that isn't connected to the Internet.
(edited 9 years ago)
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