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Mandarin or German? Dilema!

I went to the University of Leeds open day today, and went to the international business lecture. I am 100% sure I wish to do this course, however I would very much like to do it as a joint honours course with a language. The language I studied (and loved) at GCSE level was German, however my sixth form didn't offer German as an A-level subject. To study German as a joint honours at Leeds I need an A-level in the subject. I have been told that there may be some courses 'equivalent' to the A-level, and to look at doing one of these. I'd love to, alas nowhere offers any sort of German course within about 50 miles of where I live. I have been told I could learn German in 'discovery' modules, but this would take up my credits, and my degree would not mention German.

My other two options are to pick up a new subject at Leeds (I am considering Mandarin, though the characters daunt me a little bit, my research has told me that an educated person in china will know about 3000 characters!), or to look at doing International business and German at Newcastle University. The advantages to this are: I get to take the joint honours I want to and they have partners with the Erimus scheme. My issues with this: I really don't want to live in Newcastle, I know it is silly, but I'd rather spend 3 or 4 years in Leeds. Also I really like the lecturers and facilities at Leeds.

Does anyone know of any good German courses in Teesside, or have any advice on whether to forget German and study Mandarin? Any help is appreciated!

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I am Chinese I would like to point out mandarin isn't that difficult. Trust me


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I bet someone fluent in Mandarin is gonna be more rare and therefore more employable than someone fluent in German.
Original post by IfOnlyItWereEasy
I went to the University of Leeds open day today, and went to the international business lecture. I am 100% sure I wish to do this course, however I would very much like to do it as a joint honours course with a language. The language I studied (and loved) at GCSE level was German, however my sixth form didn't offer German as an A-level subject. To study German as a joint honours at Leeds I need an A-level in the subject. I have been told that there may be some courses 'equivalent' to the A-level, and to look at doing one of these. I'd love to, alas nowhere offers any sort of German course within about 50 miles of where I live. I have been told I could learn German in 'discovery' modules, but this would take up my credits, and my degree would not mention German.

My other two options are to pick up a new subject at Leeds (I am considering Mandarin, though the characters daunt me a little bit, my research has told me that an educated person in china will know about 3000 characters!), or to look at doing International business and German at Newcastle University. The advantages to this are: I get to take the joint honours I want to and they have partners with the Erimus scheme. My issues with this: I really don't want to live in Newcastle, I know it is silly, but I'd rather spend 3 or 4 years in Leeds. Also I really like the lecturers and facilities at Leeds.

Does anyone know of any good German courses in Teesside, or have any advice on whether to forget German and study Mandarin? Any help is appreciated!


Mandarin isn't too hard to learn but it isn't that easy to pronounce properly. It is a dilemma and not something we can really help you with. It depends on how important these things are to you and what you want to do with them.

Learning Mandarin and learning German lead to different opportunities, so its up to you to decide really.
Are you sure that no other university does a degree in International Business and (beginners) German? I think it would be a mistake to study another language just because you can't do the one you want. Chinese is hard, you really need to be 100% committed to it or else you will probably drop out.

I suggest you try to find another university that does the course you want. Are you just looking for degrees with the name 'international business'? You should look more closely at the modules involved, you might find there is a degree which suits your interests that has a slightly different course name (e.g. Economics and German, Business and German, Finance and German etc).

Original post by charliehong
I am Chinese I would like to point out mandarin isn't that difficult. Trust me


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How would you know? Anyone would say Mandarin was easy if they grew up speaking it.

People who say Mandarin isn't difficult don't know what they’re talking about. All languages are difficult, all languages require constant work and repetition - it is boring and tedious work which is why you have to enjoy the language you're studying to stick with it.
Original post by Samual
Are you sure that no other university does a degree in International Business and (beginners) German? I think it would be a mistake to study another language just because you can't do the one you want. Chinese is hard, you really need to be 100% committed to it or else you will probably drop out.

I suggest you try to find another university that does the course you want. Are you just looking for degrees with the name 'international business'? You should look more closely at the modules involved, you might find there is a degree which suits your interests that has a slightly different course name (e.g. Economics and German, Business and German, Finance and German etc).



How would you know? Anyone would say Mandarin was easy if they grew up speaking it.

People who say Mandarin isn't difficult don't know what they’re talking about. All languages are difficult, all languages require constant work and repetition - it is boring and tedious work which is why you have to enjoy the language you're studying to stick with it.


Could not agree with this post more. Put into words exactly what I was thinking :smile: Would rep if I could.
Original post by Samual
Are you sure that no other university does a degree in International Business and (beginners) German? I think it would be a mistake to study another language just because you can't do the one you want. Chinese is hard, you really need to be 100% committed to it or else you will probably drop out.

I suggest you try to find another university that does the course you want. Are you just looking for degrees with the name 'international business'? You should look more closely at the modules involved, you might find there is a degree which suits your interests that has a slightly different course name (e.g. Economics and German, Business and German, Finance and German etc).



How would you know? Anyone would say Mandarin was easy if they grew up speaking it.

People who say Mandarin isn't difficult don't know what they’re talking about. All languages are difficult, all languages require constant work and repetition - it is boring and tedious work which is why you have to enjoy the language you're studying to stick with it.


I really wish to do international business, the language was simply as I really enjoyed learning languages, and that it wouldn't 'truly' be international business without a foreign language. I would be willing to put the work in whatever language I learn. I'm not much of a party girl, so most of my time would be spent improving my language skills. The main thing though is that I could become 'more fluent' in German than Mandarin. That is because the university offers higher levels of German.

At the moment I am considering Mandarin as my best option, and I could always try and improve my German in my spare time. I know enough German that I could 'survive' in Germany. I am about to email my old german teacher (who also teaches A-level) to see what advice she can give me.
German is definitely a more employable language than Mandarin to learn at degree level. There are various reasons for this:

1. Mandarin uses a completely different alphabet and is challenging to learn, and very few people who learn in at degree level reach a proficient standard.
2, It won't help you work in China, as they'll just choose someone who is fluent in both Chinese in English and there are plenty of them.
3. Germany is the strongest economy in Europe, and learning it is an asset if you want to work in the EU, banking, finance etc.

I've had several friends make the mistake of thinking studying Mandarin will make them employable in China, it doesn't.
Original post by IfOnlyItWereEasy
I really wish to do international business, the language was simply as I really enjoyed learning languages, and that it wouldn't 'truly' be international business without a foreign language. I would be willing to put the work in whatever language I learn. I'm not much of a party girl, so most of my time would be spent improving my language skills. The main thing though is that I could become 'more fluent' in German than Mandarin. That is because the university offers higher levels of German.

At the moment I am considering Mandarin as my best option, and I could always try and improve my German in my spare time. I know enough German that I could 'survive' in Germany. I am about to email my old german teacher (who also teaches A-level) to see what advice she can give me.


Even students who only study Mandarin and nothing else do not leave university fluent. If your goal is to become fluent in a language then do a European one.

If you just did a single honours International Business degree, you could still (depending on the university) take a language module. Check the course specification; does Leeds let you take optional modules outside the business department? You could also learn a language in your free time at the university language centre (costs a bit though), and you can still do an Erasmus year abroad in Europe even if you're not doing a language degree.
I'd strongly recommend doing German. Although Mandarin might seem to be a great language to have, you NEED to be committed to it. The same for German, but learning a whole new set of characters will be extremely daunting.
As others have said... don't choose Mandarin unless you are committed. Especially considering the Year Abroad experience. Signing up to a year in China is not a decision you should take lightly. It's a very very different country to live in, especially with the fairly minimal language skills you'll have after just 2 years of a degree. And it is obviously way more challenging to learn for an English speaker than a European language. Not being a party girl doesn't really mean anything - if you're not passionate then you're never going to be fluent in a language like Mandarin.

I hope that doesn't sound patronising :/ I'm speaking partly from experience - I took Japanese at uni, I'm not a party girl at all, but my passion is languages rather than Japanese specifically. And although I did well enough to graduate with a first, I'm a long way off fluent. And I know that I'm never going to reach what i would consider fluency because I do not have the dedication to the Japanese language to want to put the hours in - Japanese was my 3rd/4th foreign language which I took for fun, for a challenge and for the Year Abroad/new experiences etc. I'm not all that fussed about achieving fluency in Japanese as I have French and German :smile:

And a lot of the challenges you face in Japanese apply to Chinese too: http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html
Pretty good article about learning Mandarin - made me laugh a lot as I can definitely relate! I'm not posting that to put you off (I don't regret Japanese for a second), but it's good to know what you're getting into :tongue:


And German is in very high demand so I wouldn't say Mandarin has the edge in the that respect.

Personally I loved studying at Newcastle.... but Leeds was too close to home for me to really consider it (and it didn't offer my programme). And I do like Leeds as a city a lot and I've heard good things about the uni. And I guess it's the same issue there - as important as the course is you do need to be sure about the city you're about to spend 3 years in.
Original post by Samual
Are you sure that no other university does a degree in International Business and (beginners) German? I think it would be a mistake to study another language just because you can't do the one you want. Chinese is hard, you really need to be 100% committed to it or else you will probably drop out.

I suggest you try to find another university that does the course you want. Are you just looking for degrees with the name 'international business'? You should look more closely at the modules involved, you might find there is a degree which suits your interests that has a slightly different course name (e.g. Economics and German, Business and German, Finance and German etc).



How would you know? Anyone would say Mandarin was easy if they grew up speaking it.

People who say Mandarin isn't difficult don't know what they’re talking about. All languages are difficult, all languages require constant work and repetition - it is boring and tedious work which is why you have to enjoy the language you're studying to stick with it.


I am sorry if I didn't realize the difficulties foreigners have to face when learning Mandarin. I understand Mandarin uses a different writing system, but different doesn't equal to difficult. I personally think any language is generally combined with grammar and vocabulary. Our grammar is quite simple, you can easily make a sentence without difficulties (if you know enough words). I heard native English speakers master at least 60,000 words, but if you want to master in Chinese, 3,000 would be enough.


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Original post by tengentoppa
German is definitely a more employable language than Mandarin to learn at degree level. There are various reasons for this:

1. Mandarin uses a completely different alphabet and is challenging to learn, and very few people who learn in at degree level reach a proficient standard.
2, It won't help you work in China, as they'll just choose someone who is fluent in both Chinese in English and there are plenty of them.
3. Germany is the strongest economy in Europe, and learning it is an asset if you want to work in the EU, banking, finance etc.

I've had several friends make the mistake of thinking studying Mandarin will make them employable in China, it doesn't.


I agree with most of your opinions, but I do think Mandarin can be used in some ways (if he decides to work in China). You might not know white people, especially Englishmen, are super popular and even privileged in various ways. Even some not very well-educated foreigners become teachers in universities. I am not criticizing them but I am sure any well-educated person can do better and achieve more.


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Original post by IfOnlyItWereEasy
My issues with this: I really don't want to live in Newcastle, I know it is silly, but I'd rather spend 3 or 4 years in Leeds. Also I really like the lecturers and facilities at Leeds.


Have you visited Newcastle and the uni? If not, then I would recommend doing so, as you might change your mind once you see it first hand. Furthermore, there are other universities that offer International Business with German, so why don't you look into them?
Mandarin all the way, especially if you are doing buiness. China has the largest growing economy in the world and biggest market in buiness. I live in New Zealand and we did a whole unit in school on China about the important in the global market It is considerably harder but german you could pick up easily and you would benifit from learning madarin in uni.
I'm learning Japanese and they share an alphabet with Mandarin, alongside their own two, and trust me, at first it looks horrific, but you will be able to see links between the characters and you'll pick them up far easier than you think. So try it! :awesome:

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Oh dear now I'm more confused as to what to take.

I am aware I will not become fluent in EITHER language at uni. Either course will have me starting from beginner level in the languages (my GCSE stands for nothing in the eyes of universities). Hence I will only ever get to Lower intermediate level. My main priority has to be the international business course, not the language. I LOVE languages don't get my wrong, I really do, but I cannot sacrifice a great international business course just for a language. My reasons for German: I studied it at GCSE and enjoyed it, it's a business powerhouse within Europe. My reasons for studying Mandarin: It is the most widely spoken language in the world, yes I may not become fluent by the end of my course, but I will have a solid foundation to keep improving my skills. Not to mention the Chinese economy is set to grow for many many years yet.

I also have the choice of Russian, Italian, Thai, Japanese (which I'd love to learn for pokemon manga but that's really not a good enough reason unfortunately), French, Spanish and Arabic. I am going to the University of Newcastle open day, but really Leeds is the furthest South I would like to go, and Newcastle/Northumbria/sunderland the furthest North. I mean I'd have loved to study Swedish and Finnish (for personal reasons) but only UCL offers those, and I feel that is too far from home, and also the entry requirements are so high. (yes I know my course has typical entry of AAA, but I feel that is achievable). But I would like to be within 2 hours bus journey from my current home.
Original post by IfOnlyItWereEasy
Oh dear now I'm more confused as to what to take.

I am aware I will not become fluent in EITHER language at uni. Either course will have me starting from beginner level in the languages (my GCSE stands for nothing in the eyes of universities). Hence I will only ever get to Lower intermediate level. My main priority has to be the international business course, not the language. I LOVE languages don't get my wrong, I really do, but I cannot sacrifice a great international business course just for a language. My reasons for German: I studied it at GCSE and enjoyed it, it's a business powerhouse within Europe. My reasons for studying Mandarin: It is the most widely spoken language in the world, yes I may not become fluent by the end of my course, but I will have a solid foundation to keep improving my skills. Not to mention the Chinese economy is set to grow for many many years yet.

I also have the choice of Russian, Italian, Thai, Japanese (which I'd love to learn for pokemon manga but that's really not a good enough reason unfortunately), French, Spanish and Arabic. I am going to the University of Newcastle open day, but really Leeds is the furthest South I would like to go, and Newcastle/Northumbria/sunderland the furthest North. I mean I'd have loved to study Swedish and Finnish (for personal reasons) but only UCL offers those, and I feel that is too far from home, and also the entry requirements are so high. (yes I know my course has typical entry of AAA, but I feel that is achievable). But I would like to be within 2 hours bus journey from my current home.


I'd go with German. You already have experience in it and you know you like it, so it's a safe bet. Plus it's "useful" for business so slots in nicely with your degree.

Do you know anything about China culturally? Have you ever been there? Really you also have to like the culture to motivate yourself to learn the language. My French is pretty good now, but I have no desire to learn much more cos France doesn't interest me that much. With Chinese as it's a harder language it requires more motivation.

You're also more likely to reach a higher standard of German compared to Chinese. It would be a shame to have a degree in a language but only be sort of ok at it rather than have a strong conversational level. Plus you're paying 9k a year for this, better to spend it on a high level of German than mediocre Chinese.

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Original post by IfOnlyItWereEasy
Oh dear now I'm more confused as to what to take.

I am aware I will not become fluent in EITHER language at uni. Either course will have me starting from beginner level in the languages (my GCSE stands for nothing in the eyes of universities). Hence I will only ever get to Lower intermediate level. My main priority has to be the international business course, not the language. I LOVE languages don't get my wrong, I really do, but I cannot sacrifice a great international business course just for a language. My reasons for German: I studied it at GCSE and enjoyed it, it's a business powerhouse within Europe. My reasons for studying Mandarin: It is the most widely spoken language in the world, yes I may not become fluent by the end of my course, but I will have a solid foundation to keep improving my skills. Not to mention the Chinese economy is set to grow for many many years yet.

I also have the choice of Russian, Italian, Thai, Japanese (which I'd love to learn for pokemon manga but that's really not a good enough reason unfortunately), French, Spanish and Arabic. I am going to the University of Newcastle open day, but really Leeds is the furthest South I would like to go, and Newcastle/Northumbria/sunderland the furthest North. I mean I'd have loved to study Swedish and Finnish (for personal reasons) but only UCL offers those, and I feel that is too far from home, and also the entry requirements are so high. (yes I know my course has typical entry of AAA, but I feel that is achievable). But I would like to be within 2 hours bus journey from my current home.


No it isn't. Chinese has the most native speakers in the world, but 99% of them are in China. If you don't plan on living in China then it doesn't matter how many Chinese speakers there are because they're there and you're here.

UK exports to China in 2011 were Β£13.78 billion, but UK exports to Ireland, Switzerland, Germany, France and the Netherlands were Β£26.5 billion. Those 5 European countries represent one tenth of China's population but we do double the amount of trade with them. German, French and even Dutch is realistically going to be of greater use than Chinese.

It is totally possible to become fluent in a European language at university, even if you start from beginners - you just have to put in the work. As for Swedish, Edinburgh does it as well. If you want to take up a language, pick the one which interests you most.
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