Thoughts on the Manosphere's angry reaction to modern Western feminism: The Red Pill.
Are there any merits to this subreddit? Over the last few months I've been browsing it and it is…pretty sick, to be frank. I have created an account on Reddit, pretend to 'swallow' the 'red pill' i.e. adopt their philosophy so that I could read some of their literature and traced a lot of my insecurities about masculinity, relationships and sex into their ideology. It's really a large and worryingly popular hub for the online Manosphere subculture (which includes MRAs and MGTOWs). It has a staggering 80,000 members, it makes me feel a bit ill and paranoid every time I go on there, and it comes across as a cult.
Description of said philosophy to follow if anybody needs to know, which would make why I put this in Society apparent. Really don't want to get banned, but I have to discuss it somewhere (and not inside TRP itself for obvious reasons!)
Description of said philosophy to follow if anybody needs to know, which would make why I put this in Society apparent. Really don't want to get banned, but I have to discuss it somewhere (and not inside TRP itself for obvious reasons!)
(edited 9 years ago)
Scroll to see replies
To summarise its philosophy, the men of TRP exist in a hyper-'macho' world where they believe men should constantly, I mean night and day like your very life depends on it (because it does to them), maintain 'frame' around their women and in public. By 'frame' they mean complete self-control and a position of strength-because any form of insecurity is weakness which questions your masculinity, thus attractiveness, thus the strength of the relationship. Around other men it is necessary to be relatively masculine but there is a sense of camaraderie against what is being faced, so you can let your guard down a little, provided you continue to accept the rules of life-the Red Pill.
The underlying core belief is that evolutionary biology dictates a lot of both a man's and a woman's psyche and behaviour. In other words men are genetically 'programmed' to seek a feminine, physically attractive and fertile mate and women are inclined to seek masculine men who can protect and provide. The cliche 'alpha-beta' dichotomy is frequently used, although here beta is suggested as a man considered not just sexually/physically 'beta' but lacking dominance in several aspects of his life-e.g. poor, socially awkward, untalented, submissive, depressed or anxious. In other words, what society views as the virgin 'loser'. The men are all in agreement on these tenets; although very learned and intellectual, often operate as a hive-mind.
The name derives from a Matrix reference, to the idea that the men who are still being blinded by the 'lie' thrust upon them by mainstream media and surface society are 'blue pill' beta males. TRP believes that modern feminism has failed in 3 significant ways. Firstly, to correct the ongoing gender double standards (because in TRP’s perspective modern Western feminism’s radical areas want no concession for men). Secondly, by attempting to outright reject the credibility of traditional gender roles in any form (“I like to wear make-up I AM OPPRESSED BY THE PATRIARCHY”). Thirdly, by persecuting men.-the system is (in their opinion) rigged against men-not on a socioeconomic level but on a primitive one.
One of the more controversial aspects, the misogynistic element (although the whole sub is really misogynistic, traditionalist and moderately right-wing), is the idea that women, liberated from the patriarchy by feminism, have been socially conditioned to lie about their hormonal responses and latent sexuality in order to continue the maternal or 'innocent' image that 'polite society' forces upon them. It is also a means of 'testing' men to separate those who know what I've seen elsewhere in the PUA community referred to as 'The Game' from those who don't-the Red Pillers from the Blue Pillers. For example, that women find it attractive when men are 'sweet', or can empathise with their insecurities and don’t judge men for it, but in reality this lowers the man’s 'sexual market value' (SMV) in their eyes (what I previously referred to and is referred to on AskMen as ‘Interest Level’). Of course this is much less common in our generation. They refer to this hypocritical behaviour with the derogatory name of 'hamstering'.
However, the men who 'swallow the red pill' are released from this 'lie', accept the fact that in a still mostly patriarchal society (since sexism still exists does it not?) men do not have power unless they conform to the evolutionary model and patriarchy, and that women are often contradictory in what they state to men is attractive. Well, to be precise, it goes as far as saying women are liars about it, whereas men are largely aware but have no sympathy for struggling men (for sympathy is not masculine). The process of swallowing RP is considered an existential ladder to climb, with 5 stages of grief including the depression that one may never truly emotionally confide in their SO, even their wife (because this means losing 'frame', SMV and soon after facing ‘divorce-rape’, etc.)
It also involves the acceptance that as a man, your value as a human being is actually inferior to a woman's; you are a disposable body, unnecessary for the purpose of the continuation of the human race, and patriarchy is constructed so as to make men dominant yet simultaneously disposable. In other words, society doesn't actually give a **** for you, you are a man, you are supposed to protect and provide, not need-therefore you have no choice but to improve as to make yourself a disposable commodity or…die…or at least live life as invisible blue pill virgin, oblivious to how you are mocked and used by society (including women-e.g. being ‘whipped’).
Despite this, TRP believes patriarchy to be a good thing, however, an extension of the evolutionary model purported above. Continuing the metaphor, Neo would be foolish to pretend the Matrix didn't exist, even if he hates it it is reality-but if and only if he accepts reality he can learn its rules and reshape himself-itself-to his will. The same goes for RP men.
As I say, it is incredibly misogynistic and has cult tactics. These men go beyond the tactics of pick-up artist cultures and advocate emotional abuse. Some of the moderators don\'t believe in marital rape, for example, some think No means Yes. Also, reading on the Dark Triad is disturbing to say the least-basically a How to Be a Sociopath 101.
At the same time, their somewhat Spartan approach to stoic self-improvement-no excuses, there are no excuses for men, become great or die a nobody-has yielded results for a lot of those who visit, sometimes turning them into what society perceives as a 'successful man', or alpha male.
Bizarrely, a very small sector of traditionalist women have rallied to the campaign of returning to what seems to be a submissive 1950s housewife, in the 'RedPillWomen'. In RP relationships women are generally very 'alpha' females, at the top of their respective social hierarchies e.g. social groups, positions of employment-and yet still submit to being 'First mate' to their male "Captain'.
Importantly RPs are not supposed to discuss this philosophy in public. The reason for this is because, according to them, women seek ‘natural’ Alphas-any man who had to learn through some self-help articles on the Internet is really Beta Blue Pill at heart. In other words, Rule #1 of Fight Club: don’t talk about Fight Club. So I’m being brave here, as a TRP dude with access to the sub but who doesn’t really want to agree with it. This code of silence also suggests to me that I am dealing with a cult mentality.
tl;dr found a disgusting website which explains a lot of my paranoid views. Their philosophy is disturbingly elaborate in its misogyny, also includes examples of sociopathic behaviour, how to manipulate people and a zealous pursuit of rationalism. Yet it's attracted 80,000 followers.
Your thoughts, anyone who's been there? I am arguing this from a position where I do not wholly believe their very very depressing worldview but must dive in to challenge it anyway. Am I looking at a cult?
N.B. I suggest no young man or woman under the age of 16-ideally 18-visit the Red Pill, because of its downright insidious tactics and ideology. Only go if you are in a good place below this age and very emotionally self-composed, ideally not until you are that age. I can't stop anyone going but it is heavy.
I say this because every time I visit TRP I notice a significant decline in my mental health, specifically worsening trust issues.
Interesting counter-argument to TRP: http://jebkinnison.com/2014/05/07/life-is-unfair-the-militant-red-pill-movement/
The underlying core belief is that evolutionary biology dictates a lot of both a man's and a woman's psyche and behaviour. In other words men are genetically 'programmed' to seek a feminine, physically attractive and fertile mate and women are inclined to seek masculine men who can protect and provide. The cliche 'alpha-beta' dichotomy is frequently used, although here beta is suggested as a man considered not just sexually/physically 'beta' but lacking dominance in several aspects of his life-e.g. poor, socially awkward, untalented, submissive, depressed or anxious. In other words, what society views as the virgin 'loser'. The men are all in agreement on these tenets; although very learned and intellectual, often operate as a hive-mind.
The name derives from a Matrix reference, to the idea that the men who are still being blinded by the 'lie' thrust upon them by mainstream media and surface society are 'blue pill' beta males. TRP believes that modern feminism has failed in 3 significant ways. Firstly, to correct the ongoing gender double standards (because in TRP’s perspective modern Western feminism’s radical areas want no concession for men). Secondly, by attempting to outright reject the credibility of traditional gender roles in any form (“I like to wear make-up I AM OPPRESSED BY THE PATRIARCHY”). Thirdly, by persecuting men.-the system is (in their opinion) rigged against men-not on a socioeconomic level but on a primitive one.
One of the more controversial aspects, the misogynistic element (although the whole sub is really misogynistic, traditionalist and moderately right-wing), is the idea that women, liberated from the patriarchy by feminism, have been socially conditioned to lie about their hormonal responses and latent sexuality in order to continue the maternal or 'innocent' image that 'polite society' forces upon them. It is also a means of 'testing' men to separate those who know what I've seen elsewhere in the PUA community referred to as 'The Game' from those who don't-the Red Pillers from the Blue Pillers. For example, that women find it attractive when men are 'sweet', or can empathise with their insecurities and don’t judge men for it, but in reality this lowers the man’s 'sexual market value' (SMV) in their eyes (what I previously referred to and is referred to on AskMen as ‘Interest Level’). Of course this is much less common in our generation. They refer to this hypocritical behaviour with the derogatory name of 'hamstering'.
However, the men who 'swallow the red pill' are released from this 'lie', accept the fact that in a still mostly patriarchal society (since sexism still exists does it not?) men do not have power unless they conform to the evolutionary model and patriarchy, and that women are often contradictory in what they state to men is attractive. Well, to be precise, it goes as far as saying women are liars about it, whereas men are largely aware but have no sympathy for struggling men (for sympathy is not masculine). The process of swallowing RP is considered an existential ladder to climb, with 5 stages of grief including the depression that one may never truly emotionally confide in their SO, even their wife (because this means losing 'frame', SMV and soon after facing ‘divorce-rape’, etc.)
It also involves the acceptance that as a man, your value as a human being is actually inferior to a woman's; you are a disposable body, unnecessary for the purpose of the continuation of the human race, and patriarchy is constructed so as to make men dominant yet simultaneously disposable. In other words, society doesn't actually give a **** for you, you are a man, you are supposed to protect and provide, not need-therefore you have no choice but to improve as to make yourself a disposable commodity or…die…or at least live life as invisible blue pill virgin, oblivious to how you are mocked and used by society (including women-e.g. being ‘whipped’).
Despite this, TRP believes patriarchy to be a good thing, however, an extension of the evolutionary model purported above. Continuing the metaphor, Neo would be foolish to pretend the Matrix didn't exist, even if he hates it it is reality-but if and only if he accepts reality he can learn its rules and reshape himself-itself-to his will. The same goes for RP men.
As I say, it is incredibly misogynistic and has cult tactics. These men go beyond the tactics of pick-up artist cultures and advocate emotional abuse. Some of the moderators don\'t believe in marital rape, for example, some think No means Yes. Also, reading on the Dark Triad is disturbing to say the least-basically a How to Be a Sociopath 101.
At the same time, their somewhat Spartan approach to stoic self-improvement-no excuses, there are no excuses for men, become great or die a nobody-has yielded results for a lot of those who visit, sometimes turning them into what society perceives as a 'successful man', or alpha male.
Bizarrely, a very small sector of traditionalist women have rallied to the campaign of returning to what seems to be a submissive 1950s housewife, in the 'RedPillWomen'. In RP relationships women are generally very 'alpha' females, at the top of their respective social hierarchies e.g. social groups, positions of employment-and yet still submit to being 'First mate' to their male "Captain'.
Importantly RPs are not supposed to discuss this philosophy in public. The reason for this is because, according to them, women seek ‘natural’ Alphas-any man who had to learn through some self-help articles on the Internet is really Beta Blue Pill at heart. In other words, Rule #1 of Fight Club: don’t talk about Fight Club. So I’m being brave here, as a TRP dude with access to the sub but who doesn’t really want to agree with it. This code of silence also suggests to me that I am dealing with a cult mentality.
tl;dr found a disgusting website which explains a lot of my paranoid views. Their philosophy is disturbingly elaborate in its misogyny, also includes examples of sociopathic behaviour, how to manipulate people and a zealous pursuit of rationalism. Yet it's attracted 80,000 followers.
Your thoughts, anyone who's been there? I am arguing this from a position where I do not wholly believe their very very depressing worldview but must dive in to challenge it anyway. Am I looking at a cult?
N.B. I suggest no young man or woman under the age of 16-ideally 18-visit the Red Pill, because of its downright insidious tactics and ideology. Only go if you are in a good place below this age and very emotionally self-composed, ideally not until you are that age. I can't stop anyone going but it is heavy.
I say this because every time I visit TRP I notice a significant decline in my mental health, specifically worsening trust issues.
Interesting counter-argument to TRP: http://jebkinnison.com/2014/05/07/life-is-unfair-the-militant-red-pill-movement/
(edited 9 years ago)
I have seen much worse than the reddit red pill section. You want worrying? Go and have a look at 4chan's /pol/ or "Politically Incorrect". I feel sorry for these people.
I have stumbled on this 'red pill' talk occasionally on my internet travels and yeah, they don't strike me as pleasant, happy people. I'm glad I've never been sucked into such a cynical mentality, it must be a hell of a way to go through life.
The internet is a hang out for all sorts of weird conspiracy theorists, they provide material for each other and then go off and spread it over other forums. We see two of these types a lot on TSR, the "global Jewish conspiracy" and the "global feminist conspiracy".
I think this manosphere stuff is taking advantage of the fact that men are generally more isolated than women in terms of talking to others about relationship failures. Most women go through the stage of "you don't need a man baby you're worth more on your own" when something has gone wrong with a guy and they will sit with their friends and rant about men to get it out of their system. They don't really hate men it's just a temporary way of dealing with the problem in a way that makes them feel better because it makes the problem external (ie men) rather than something wrong with them.
The problem is these internet hangouts for lonely men include some extremely bitter men that have developed a pathological hatred of women, and they have turned it in to an internet campaign against women. Wasn't this manosphere stuff where Elliot Rodger was posting and there were those screenshots of a forum where people were saying "don't let the media find this".
In terms of redeeming features I don't think its a bad thing when you get stuff on the internet where men are trying to provide other men with support and advice on how to live their lives better, ie stop spending their whole time obsessing over their interactions with women, stop spending their lives on porn, get out and lift weights, learn to dress well, read books, get qualified, get successful, have an attitude that both gives and commands respect. This type of stuff is good and can give lonely men an anchor for their concept of masculinity to work towards. But this manosphere stuff on the internet that tells men that they are living in oppression because of women, encourages the cyber-harassment of feminists and so on is something to avoid.
The problem with cultist stuff like this is if someone spends too long on it they get a warped sense of reality through just having these false beliefs reinforced by others in the cult. In the real world men aren't oppressed, the vast majority of men manage to get decent jobs and have decent relationships with women, there are no real barriers there. Some men can't do that and they need some support and advice, there is some positive stuff out there they just need to make sure they don't get sucked in to this type of stuff.
I think this manosphere stuff is taking advantage of the fact that men are generally more isolated than women in terms of talking to others about relationship failures. Most women go through the stage of "you don't need a man baby you're worth more on your own" when something has gone wrong with a guy and they will sit with their friends and rant about men to get it out of their system. They don't really hate men it's just a temporary way of dealing with the problem in a way that makes them feel better because it makes the problem external (ie men) rather than something wrong with them.
The problem is these internet hangouts for lonely men include some extremely bitter men that have developed a pathological hatred of women, and they have turned it in to an internet campaign against women. Wasn't this manosphere stuff where Elliot Rodger was posting and there were those screenshots of a forum where people were saying "don't let the media find this".
In terms of redeeming features I don't think its a bad thing when you get stuff on the internet where men are trying to provide other men with support and advice on how to live their lives better, ie stop spending their whole time obsessing over their interactions with women, stop spending their lives on porn, get out and lift weights, learn to dress well, read books, get qualified, get successful, have an attitude that both gives and commands respect. This type of stuff is good and can give lonely men an anchor for their concept of masculinity to work towards. But this manosphere stuff on the internet that tells men that they are living in oppression because of women, encourages the cyber-harassment of feminists and so on is something to avoid.
The problem with cultist stuff like this is if someone spends too long on it they get a warped sense of reality through just having these false beliefs reinforced by others in the cult. In the real world men aren't oppressed, the vast majority of men manage to get decent jobs and have decent relationships with women, there are no real barriers there. Some men can't do that and they need some support and advice, there is some positive stuff out there they just need to make sure they don't get sucked in to this type of stuff.
Original post by ilem
It only has so many subs because people come in there to have a laugh a lot.
The redpillwomen subreddit is the funniest (and saddest) though, full of women who have internalised the core red pill message of male superiority to a great degree.
The redpillwomen subreddit is the funniest (and saddest) though, full of women who have internalised the core red pill message of male superiority to a great degree.
Really? There's nothing funny about it, it's just horrible to read and easy to get pulled into (if you're that way inclined ahem) :/ I enjoy the Blue Pill satire subreddit though
Redpillwomen is almost as scary. However TRP is full of rape apologists, so I think that takes the biscuit.
Original post by DiddyDec
I have seen much worse than the reddit red pill section. You want worrying? Go and have a look at 4chan's /pol/ or "Politically Incorrect". I feel sorry for these people.
Can you link me an example? So far this just looks far-right. I've seen recently on TRP rape apology, the Dark Triad (I mention in other comment but again here you gohttp://illimitablemen.com/2013/11/17/understanding-the-dark-triad/) and one guy encouraged a BP to go kill himself
(edited 9 years ago)
I generally think of them as sad neck beards who can't get laid
Original post by Anonimity
Funny how all these "alpha" males are busy like nerds on a ****ing forum, that's true beta
I'm sure you'd never do such a thing.
Oh, wait.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
The internet is a hang out for all sorts of weird conspiracy theorists, they provide material for each other and then go off and spread it over other forums. We see two of these types a lot on TSR, the "global Jewish conspiracy" and the "global feminist conspiracy".
I think this manosphere stuff is taking advantage of the fact that men are generally more isolated than women in terms of talking to others about relationship failures. Most women go through the stage of "you don't need a man baby you're worth more on your own" when something has gone wrong with a guy and they will sit with their friends and rant about men to get it out of their system. They don't really hate men it's just a temporary way of dealing with the problem in a way that makes them feel better because it makes the problem external (ie men) rather than something wrong with them.
The problem is these internet hangouts for lonely men include some extremely bitter men that have developed a pathological hatred of women, and they have turned it in to an internet campaign against women. Wasn't this manosphere stuff where Elliot Rodger was posting and there were those screenshots of a forum where people were saying "don't let the media find this".
In terms of redeeming features I don't think its a bad thing when you get stuff on the internet where men are trying to provide other men with support and advice on how to live their lives better, ie stop spending their whole time obsessing over their interactions with women, stop spending their lives on porn, get out and lift weights, learn to dress well, read books, get qualified, get successful, have an attitude that both gives and commands respect. This type of stuff is good and can give lonely men an anchor for their concept of masculinity to work towards. But this manosphere stuff on the internet that tells men that they are living in oppression because of women, encourages the cyber-harassment of feminists and so on is something to avoid.
The problem with cultist stuff like this is if someone spends too long on it they get a warped sense of reality through just having these false beliefs reinforced by others in the cult. In the real world men aren't oppressed, the vast majority of men manage to get decent jobs and have decent relationships with women, there are no real barriers there. Some men can't do that and they need some support and advice, there is some positive stuff out there they just need to make sure they don't get sucked in to this type of stuff.
I think this manosphere stuff is taking advantage of the fact that men are generally more isolated than women in terms of talking to others about relationship failures. Most women go through the stage of "you don't need a man baby you're worth more on your own" when something has gone wrong with a guy and they will sit with their friends and rant about men to get it out of their system. They don't really hate men it's just a temporary way of dealing with the problem in a way that makes them feel better because it makes the problem external (ie men) rather than something wrong with them.
The problem is these internet hangouts for lonely men include some extremely bitter men that have developed a pathological hatred of women, and they have turned it in to an internet campaign against women. Wasn't this manosphere stuff where Elliot Rodger was posting and there were those screenshots of a forum where people were saying "don't let the media find this".
In terms of redeeming features I don't think its a bad thing when you get stuff on the internet where men are trying to provide other men with support and advice on how to live their lives better, ie stop spending their whole time obsessing over their interactions with women, stop spending their lives on porn, get out and lift weights, learn to dress well, read books, get qualified, get successful, have an attitude that both gives and commands respect. This type of stuff is good and can give lonely men an anchor for their concept of masculinity to work towards. But this manosphere stuff on the internet that tells men that they are living in oppression because of women, encourages the cyber-harassment of feminists and so on is something to avoid.
The problem with cultist stuff like this is if someone spends too long on it they get a warped sense of reality through just having these false beliefs reinforced by others in the cult. In the real world men aren't oppressed, the vast majority of men manage to get decent jobs and have decent relationships with women, there are no real barriers there. Some men can't do that and they need some support and advice, there is some positive stuff out there they just need to make sure they don't get sucked in to this type of stuff.
Yeah we do have a few strange trends on TSR too
(What's happened to drake and JamieTT btw, our resident "feminist conspiracy" theorists?)TRP criticises this and makes men operate on a basis of hyper-accountability. The answer to just about anything is either misogynistic or "you lost frame" (that's being stoic and maintaining composure around women, even your wife yes they think you have to be on guard around your wife).
True…yes he was. Trying to remember the name of the site he placed his Manifesto on, will link later
I'd agree, to a point. However, these guys shame anyone who is not as ruthless in their stoic self-improvement as them. The principle behind the "oppression" is that women have been socialised not to tell men that they have to do all this stuff to be attractive, so lots of men-the Bluepillers-are deluded into thinking they're OK as they are-which honestly I think they should be as long as they're half-way respectable beings. I went onto RedpillWomen and tested this theory out by saying would they cheat on their ma/dump him if e.g. he lost his job, gained weight/took a hiatus from lifting, anything which lowers his "game", or sexual market value (SMV flies around a lot there, also social proof). They said "sorry we can't answer that, go to TRP and find out"-which means Yes
Yeah TRP hates feminists…
yes that is true. It's a dangerous environment. It's sad that I found it halfway through my relationship because it's put the weirdest ideas in my head
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I generally think of them as sad neck beards who can't get laid
A lot of them come back with stories spanning from success with PUA tactics to events of their 20-year marriage, which seem far too intricate to be all trolling (especially the latter married ones, which scare me the most Tyrion)
Original post by Anonimity
Funny how all these "alpha" males are busy like nerds on a ****ing forum, that's true beta
If you read the posts of e.g. IllimitableMan he sounds full alpha. He rarely posts and when he does it's sidebar stuff. He's also Dark triad which is ****ed up
The dating advice on The Red Pill boils down to "act like you don't care, and if at all possible genuinely don't care", which does actually work. It's the oldest negotiating tactic in the book. However they advocate being overly cruel and callous to hook-ups, like kicking them out onto the streets if they change their mind about having sex, the thinking being that allowing them to sleep in your bed with you encourages the formation of a bond that does not have a sexual component.
This has shades of the PUA fad that was happening a few years ago and I feel that an unhelpful amount of that baggage has been brought along, with men almost competing to see who can be the most clinical while having the most sex.
They also make some excellent points about divorce which any fool can see is an area of genuine institutional inequality.
But they are way too cynical about women, assuming they are all selfish materialists who care about nothing but themselves, and particularly extracting money and validation from beta males. This is plainly too simplistic: women do have integrity, they have the means to earn their own living, and in my experience they often take much more pride in their career than men, because women feel they owe it to feminism to be career-oriented.
However these laws need to be made equitable and until then their advice as regards this stuff could be useful for hook-up culture and relationships where there is a significant earning potential disparity and/or the female partner is desperate for financial support.
All in all, I think it is a much needed male space on the Internet. It unfortunately veers into misogyny and militancy relatively often, but I feel that it encourages men to define themselves on their own terms rather than according to what women want them to be. It gives men a point of reference for calling out unreasonable behaviour on the part of their girlfriends which would once have been available in male spaces like the local boozer. I think it's a positive sign that men are responding to the crisis of masculinity by communicating in male spaces, although they may be virulent, and hope that the men's movement snowballs and evolves like third-wave feminism into something more stable.
We must of course remember that feminism was just like this back in the 1970s, with many influential and controversial opinion-formers talking about an all-female utopia, violent retribution against men, all sex is rape etc etc. As feminism has settled down since, we can expect that the men's movement also will.
This has shades of the PUA fad that was happening a few years ago and I feel that an unhelpful amount of that baggage has been brought along, with men almost competing to see who can be the most clinical while having the most sex.
They also make some excellent points about divorce which any fool can see is an area of genuine institutional inequality.
But they are way too cynical about women, assuming they are all selfish materialists who care about nothing but themselves, and particularly extracting money and validation from beta males. This is plainly too simplistic: women do have integrity, they have the means to earn their own living, and in my experience they often take much more pride in their career than men, because women feel they owe it to feminism to be career-oriented.
However these laws need to be made equitable and until then their advice as regards this stuff could be useful for hook-up culture and relationships where there is a significant earning potential disparity and/or the female partner is desperate for financial support.
All in all, I think it is a much needed male space on the Internet. It unfortunately veers into misogyny and militancy relatively often, but I feel that it encourages men to define themselves on their own terms rather than according to what women want them to be. It gives men a point of reference for calling out unreasonable behaviour on the part of their girlfriends which would once have been available in male spaces like the local boozer. I think it's a positive sign that men are responding to the crisis of masculinity by communicating in male spaces, although they may be virulent, and hope that the men's movement snowballs and evolves like third-wave feminism into something more stable.
We must of course remember that feminism was just like this back in the 1970s, with many influential and controversial opinion-formers talking about an all-female utopia, violent retribution against men, all sex is rape etc etc. As feminism has settled down since, we can expect that the men's movement also will.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
I'm sure you'd never do such a thing.
Oh, wait.
Oh, wait.
Shame I think this whole Alpha/Beta thing is pathetic and stupid. Aww I'm sorry, did you think you were being clever then?
Original post by Anonimity
Shame I think this whole Alpha/Beta thing is pathetic and stupid. Aww I'm sorry, did you think you were being clever then?
But to an extent, it does exist.
Think of what you think when you meet an in-shape, well groomed, confident and intelligent male in a sharp suit going about a business errand-you think man, and you feel a sense of respect-for a lot of women it's attractive. Most guys roughly recognise this as 'alpha'.
Think of what you think when you meet an overweight/[oh **** did I have to use it] 'skinny-fat'/out of shape, grubby, insecure guy in baggy jeans flopping about on the couch-you think boy, or worse man child. Women tend to see this guy as lazy and irresponsible (or depressed and unemployed, but we're wrongfully socialised to conflate the two) and either they'll think of him like a son, looking after him and feeling a bit sorry for him, or stay away from him with a ten-foot barge pole. This is generally considered 'beta'.
It is a stupid shallow prejudice which speaks a lot about the way our minds work but it would be foolish to deny it exists. There is some social scale of what actions merit respect through to what merit scorn. And I'm yet to find myself attracted to someone I have absolutely no respect for.
Original post by Riku
But to an extent, it does exist.
Think of what you think when you meet an in-shape, well groomed, confident and intelligent male in a sharp suit going about a business errand-you think man, and you feel a sense of respect-for a lot of women it's attractive. Most guys roughly recognise this as 'alpha'.
Think of what you think when you meet an overweight/[oh **** did I have to use it] 'skinny-fat'/out of shape, grubby, insecure guy in baggy jeans flopping about on the couch-you think boy, or worse man child. Women tend to see this guy as lazy and irresponsible (or depressed and unemployed, but we're wrongfully socialised to conflate the two) and either they'll think of him like a son, looking after him and feeling a bit sorry for him, or stay away from him with a ten-foot barge pole. This is generally considered 'beta'.
It is a stupid shallow prejudice which speaks a lot about the way our minds work but it would be foolish to deny it exists. There is some social scale of what actions merit respect through to what merit scorn. And I'm yet to find myself attracted to someone I have absolutely no respect for.
Think of what you think when you meet an in-shape, well groomed, confident and intelligent male in a sharp suit going about a business errand-you think man, and you feel a sense of respect-for a lot of women it's attractive. Most guys roughly recognise this as 'alpha'.
Think of what you think when you meet an overweight/[oh **** did I have to use it] 'skinny-fat'/out of shape, grubby, insecure guy in baggy jeans flopping about on the couch-you think boy, or worse man child. Women tend to see this guy as lazy and irresponsible (or depressed and unemployed, but we're wrongfully socialised to conflate the two) and either they'll think of him like a son, looking after him and feeling a bit sorry for him, or stay away from him with a ten-foot barge pole. This is generally considered 'beta'.
It is a stupid shallow prejudice which speaks a lot about the way our minds work but it would be foolish to deny it exists. There is some social scale of what actions merit respect through to what merit scorn. And I'm yet to find myself attracted to someone I have absolutely no respect for.
Riku, you are fairly good at articulating your thoughts, shame you're reading lets you down. Where in my post do I deny its existence?
Shame you wasted all that time replying
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