Ukraine.

Are the Russians still pushing their bizarre narrative about a fighter that cant fly that high or fast shooting it down?

Difference between you and me Aj is I am not partisan and I trust none of them: the Ruskies might have done it, the separatists might have done it, Kiev might have done it, or even another party might have done it.
I just want the truth.

Psst... did you even read the article before posting ? come on now that is one Truth that we can get to :wink:

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 61

reciproversexclu

9

Hey DaniilKaya or anyone who speaks Ukrainian, would you please tell us what this lot are saying ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0af_1420424403&comments=1

This lot http://www.salon.com/2015/01/21/distortions_lies_and_omissions_the_new_york_times_wont_tell_you_the_real_story_behind_ukraine_russian_economic_collapse/

tell a different story than this lot http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html?_r=1

Reply 62

Studentus-anonymous

12

I still feel like Ukraine would be better off in the long run conceding the east for a smaller but more stable and prosperous west.

Join NATO and the EU. Sort the economy out. Happy days, leave Russia one or two paltry expensive buffer states. Once in NATO and the EU Russia can never again threaten the new Ukraine without risking open war with the west.

Ukraine should start talks with a mind to letting go of the rebel republics (Russian puppets or not).

But Ukraine will keep fighting and digging it's hole deeper as it lingers in a limbo of war and a crashing economy.

Reply 63

saayagain

8

Original post by Matas411

whats going on?

Ukraine government chose Russia's economic proposal rather than join the EU. Protesters emerge. Gets taken over by right wing extremists. They remove the government. US backs the new government.

Crimea annexed by Russia once US backs new government. Held referendum. Voted to join Russia.

Eastern Ukraine dislike fascist government. Want to self determinate. Kiev disapproves. The government moves in with violent repression of anti kiev movement. Donetsk and Lugansk region fight back. Guerrilla warfare ensues. Government forces shell and bombard eastern ukraine killing civilians.

One sided reporting in the west. Demonizes Russia. Indicates pretext. Ukraine important geographically.

The only solution is the split the country between Pro EU and Pro Russia or kill each other.

I think that's the gist of it...

Now, Russia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The East of Ukraine wants to join them but Russia cannot allow this because it will make them look expansionist. Instead they have to let Ukrainians die. They send aid, the media say they send tanks.

The US love to pursue their own desires at the expense of human lives. The same principle with ISIS. US supports ISIS and the fascist government in Ukraine. US demonizes Assad and Putin.

WW3 is inevitable...unless America's economy fails

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 64

Pegasus2

16

Original post by saayagain

Ukraine government chose Russia's economic proposal rather than join the EU. Protesters emerge. Gets taken over by right wing extremists. They remove the government. US backs the new government.

Crimea annexed by Russia once US backs new government. Held referendum. Voted to join Russia.

Eastern Ukraine dislike fascist government. Want to self determinate. Kiev disapproves. The government moves in with violent repression of anti kiev movement. Donetsk and Lugansk region fight back. Guerrilla warfare ensues. Government forces shell and bombard eastern ukraine killing civilians.

One sided reporting in the west. Demonizes Russia. Indicates pretext. Ukraine important geographically.

The only solution is the split the country between Pro EU and Pro Russia or kill each other.

I think that's the gist of it...

Oh the irony. What's worse is, you KNOW that what you've just written is untrue. I don't know why you'd persure and push a false series of events but you must have your reasons. The omission and distorian of infomation in you post is nothing short of astonishing. Do you work for the Russian government?

Reply 65

saayagain

8

Original post by Pegasus2

Oh the irony. What's worse is, you KNOW that what you've just written is untrue. I don't know why you'd persure and push a false series of events but you must have your reasons. The omission and distorian of infomation in you post is nothing short of astonishing. Do you work for the Russian government?

What happened then?

I bet it's the Western bs line lol

Reply 66

reciproversexclu

9

WW3 is inevitable...unless America's economy fails

If America's economy fails then WW3 is more likely... they like their wars in other peoples' lands, but don't hold your breath for they hold the global ledger.

Reply 67

DavidSilvaMCFC

9

Putinites breaking the rules of the Geneva convention

NSFW! Do not watch past 8:30 if you don't want to see gore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9P7R-l9bUY

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 68

Rakas21

21

Original post by saayagain

WW3 is inevitable...unless America's economy fails

The other way around.

If the dollar collapsed ect.. then it would be due to outside intervention.. those impoverished people would soon demand war and the US would still have its technology.

Reply 69

reciproversexclu

9

So where is the 'free' world media in this 'they did it first' shambles?

And is the UN so hobbled by NATO that they cannot take a lead in ceasefire negotiations ?

Remember all this "apparently.." "it is reported" /"reportedly" "claimed" "alleged " next time you read a 'History' book.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6805549c-23c0-11e4-8e29-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3QDvXARBb

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/25/ukraine-crisis-russia-blocks-un-attempt-to-condemn-rebel-rocket-attack

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/24/ukraine-crisis-dozens-die-rebels-shell-mariupol

Reply 70

gagaslilmonsteruk

18

Original post by Rakas21

The other way around.

If the dollar collapsed ect.. then it would be due to outside intervention.. those impoverished people would soon demand war and the US would still have its technology.

And we all remember what happened last time the dollar collapsed ... the great depression was one major result, but it let to the collapse of the Dawes plan, leading to mass inflation in Germany, the Nazis came to power, and then we all know what happened next - the invasion of the Saarland which Germany was banned from retaking under the Treaty of Versailles, participation in the Spanish Civil War, the Anschluss, the Sudeten crisis (which came very close to starting world war 2 beginning in October 1938) the invasion of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, and then the invasion of Poland 6 months later, after which we all know what happened - the Second World War. So yes, the dollar is important.

Reply 71

Rakas21

21

Original post by gagaslilmonsteruk

And we all remember what happened last time the dollar collapsed ... the great depression was one major result, but it let to the collapse of the Dawes plan, leading to mass inflation in Germany, the Nazis came to power, and then we all know what happened next - the invasion of the Saarland which Germany was banned from retaking under the Treaty of Versailles, participation in the Spanish Civil War, the Anschluss, the Sudeten crisis (which came very close to starting world war 2 beginning in October 1938) the invasion of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, and then the invasion of Poland 6 months later, after which we all know what happened - the Second World War. So yes, the dollar is important.

Yes. The collapse and default of the US would create a power vacuum which would see states trying to take advantage like a pack of hyenas.

Reply 72

reciproversexclu

9

It does not look good for Kiev's next tranche of IMF cash http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/19/uk-ukraine-imf-idUKKBN0JX1LK20141219 and the convicted inside trader George Soros pleas for $50 billion from the US and Europe have so far fallen on deaf ears. But Soros knows how to finance the $50 billion from other peoples' money:

I have identified several such sources, notably:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/feb/05/new-policy-rescue-ukraine/

Maybe some have read this George and recognise some 'conflicts of interest'

http://observer.com/2015/01/the-new-ukraine-is-run-by-rogues-sexpots-warlords-lunatics-and-oligarchs/

Reply 73

reciproversexclu

9

The active jackals are a greater danger than potential hyenas.

Reply 74

skunkboy

11

It's part of the game called the world domination.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 75

Lionheart96

11

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150201/1017625288.html

i'm just going to leave this here :wink:

Reply 76

Studentus-anonymous

12

Original post by saayagain

Ukraine government chose Russia's economic proposal rather than join the EU. Protesters emerge. Gets taken over by right wing extremists. They remove the government. US backs the new government.

Crimea annexed by Russia once US backs new government. Held referendum. Voted to join Russia.

Eastern Ukraine dislike fascist government. Want to self determinate. Kiev disapproves. The government moves in with violent repression of anti kiev movement. Donetsk and Lugansk region fight back. Guerrilla warfare ensues. Government forces shell and bombard eastern ukraine killing civilians.

One sided reporting in the west. Demonizes Russia. Indicates pretext. Ukraine important geographically.

The only solution is the split the country between Pro EU and Pro Russia or kill each other.

I think that's the gist of it...

Now, Russia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The East of Ukraine wants to join them but Russia cannot allow this because it will make them look expansionist. Instead they have to let Ukrainians die. They send aid, the media say they send tanks.

The US love to pursue their own desires at the expense of human lives. The same principle with ISIS. US supports ISIS and the fascist government in Ukraine. US demonizes Assad and Putin.

WW3 is inevitable...unless America's economy fails

It's not that Russia has been bad so much that bothers me but the sheer hypocrisy of the west. Everyone with common sense can see Ukraine for the proxy war it is, but the media and governments continue to act as if nothing but golden sunshine and fragrant floral smells emanate from our collective asses.

Original post by Pegasus2

Oh the irony. What's worse is, you KNOW that what you've just written is untrue. I don't know why you'd persure and push a false series of events but you must have your reasons. The omission and distorian of infomation in you post is nothing short of astonishing. Do you work for the Russian government?

It's actually quite true, though it probably leaves out the fact Russia probably orchestrated signing the Russian proposal because it hand a strong hand in the pro-Russian government (odd that).

Everything else he has said is broadly true. The government was overthrown, people (mostly in the east) took issue with that, Kiev eventually sent in forces to suppress the eastern regions, Russia chose to send in it's own support to the rebels, and arguably at this point controls the whole resistance. The Kiev government is heavily influenced by far right groups, this is fact, the Ukrainian forces ARE killing their own civilians in the east (which ironically becomes one of the biggest ethical justifications for revolt and rebellion anyway).

It doesn't hurt to try and look at an issue from both sides, helps one keep a clearer correct perspective. Russia aren't the good guys in this but Kiev has hardly conducted itself to the highest moral and legal standards either.

Reply 77

Pegasus2

16

Original post by Studentus-anonymous

It's actually quite true, though it probably leaves out the fact Russia probably orchestrated signing the Russian proposal because it hand a strong hand in the pro-Russian government (odd that).

Everything else he has said is broadly true. The government was overthrown, people (mostly in the east) took issue with that, Kiev eventually sent in forces to suppress the eastern regions, Russia chose to send in it's own support to the rebels, and arguably at this point controls the whole resistance. The Kiev government is heavily influenced by far right groups, this is fact, the Ukrainian forces ARE killing their own civilians in the east (which ironically becomes one of the biggest ethical justifications for revolt and rebellion anyway).

It doesn't hurt to try and look at an issue from both sides, helps one keep a clearer correct perspective. Russia aren't the good guys in this but Kiev has hardly conducted itself to the highest moral and legal standards either.

Oh yeah, what he said IS broadly true, only is misses out some very key pieces of infomation.

What he misses out are the quick swing from EU to Rus proposals after along run up to EU. This isn't democracy. Yanukovych's OWN political people abandoned him.

Protesters emerge. Gov outlaws protest (ending democracy) Gov deploys Berkut to shoot protesters.

Rus vialates a sovreignty agreement it made with Ukraine by annexing Crimea.

Rus uses underhanded methods to anex Crimea. Also a 96% turnout is highly suspect. Loads of people said they didn't vote, which makes 96% even more suspect. NO ONE in the developed world recognises the vote, not just the US.

It's not even the 'East' its a small portion of Russian extremists who want to break away, not even the majority of the population. Most of the civilians have left the area!

The fact that ussia is trying to portray the rebels as part of the population is jokes, several of their leaders are ex Russian specials and russian troops are and have been operating there.

We know this due to their soldiers arriving home and their families asking questions and no country allows its soldiers to fight 'voluntarily' for the reasons of being accidentaly drawn into an armed conflict.

Don't think Kiev is bad, they're hardly 'fascist'. He probably thinks the Rus line the whole of the EU is dull of Nazis. There have been shootings of civies and executions by rebel forces. Rus also mentions Kiev shelling schools and civilians, they neglect to mention these schools were evacuated months ago and rebel artillery is firing from inside Russia and from inside residential areas inside the eastern parts of Ukraine. Just recently the rebels shelled the coastal town of Mariupol.

Anyway, most of the world is in disagreement with Russia over Ukraine, it's only Russia who thinks its in the right. The US isn't the country with a president who changed the law to run a third term or 24 out of 25 news channels which are state sponsored. You just have to see who has tanks and military assets fighting in said country, the rebels are pushing for more land, they are not holding the line. That should tell all.