The Student Room Group

Men need freedom to discuss male issues, but bashing women is not the solution.

In response to the recent dirge of threads on TSR about how much feminism is oppressing them etc. I tested the theory this morning by making a misandrist thread, which was met with hostility and pity. (I am aware this is also a symptom of my issues which I am seeking help with, etc.)

This is also in response to a Facebook friend, part of my former university's feminist society who I believed to be sympathetic, but who openly shot down a link on the Facebook page for BBC Free Speech, "Men Get Objectified Too" [I won't link as I choose to remain anon]

[sic] "haha lol at the pathetic justifications men are giving to have a moan, "Men Get Objectified Too"? 'omg misandry' lol pathetic men"

I find this a classic example of the misandrist double standard held by the most radical feminists. I support what I deem 'moderate' feminism which seeks equality between both genders, and free speech for both on a social level, not legal or institutional. We now have a reverse of what we had a century ago in the UK and USA; men do not have free speech because of the silencing power of patriarchy.

Crucial point: Patriarchy Hurts Men Too. YMMV dependent on how much you regard masculinity as the ideal as a male, but for me the pressure to conform to be a 'real man' has been a negative one, one which I have never managed to achieve and am exceedingly frustrated and disillusioned by, online and offline. (Because yes I do have a life outside of TSR)

Most of the TSR threads about feminist oppression are either blatantly misogynist, or frustrated by an existing double standard. A small number of women give the rest a bad name through extremist, militant views against men just as bad as misogyny. This unfortunately encourages sweeping negative generalisations about women and feminism-but they are allowed to do so due to the existence of the double standard.

From what little knowledge on this subject I have done, (and I will admit that it is layman armchair stuff)…

Thee majority of women who abuse feminism-the 'misandrists' lads on TSR like to complain about so much-are either

-a minority with immoral/abusive/sociopathic tendencies anyway

- a radical feminist (an elite, vocal and popular minority but relative minority nonetheless) or

-women simply oblivious to the fact they are conforming to patriarchal structures, brainwashed you might say.

Recent discussion with another TSR user centred around my belief that women will have more sympathy to men's issues when men are prepared to publicly join the feminist cause and values. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. For me, we are both up against a system which has hurt us-the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

We were sceptical whether women would work on these issues even if we became feminist. Perhaps they will, perhaps not. I would imagine, judging by the older women members (both in real-life age and TSR post/date history) that there would be some sympathies.

What I do know for a fact is that women-bashing alone will get us nowhere; it reeks of emotional maturity, it's rarely executed rationally, and remember that:

a) Radical feminists will encourage opposition against it almost as soon as the argument is sprung (see every TSR thread on feminism ever)
b) Recently converted feminists will not yet be aware of the double-edged sword that is patriarchy, and align with the rad-fems quickly
c) Men are socialised by patriarchy to rally against those men who fail to conform to it- a man who complains that Patriarachy Hurts Men Too must be silenced

So we are dealing with 3 enemies here, not 1.

That leaves 2 potential allies:

1) the men who have been abandoned and cheated by patriarchy (this to an extent includes myself)
2) the feminists of a moderate disposition, who believe in feminism in its purest form: equality.

To get these we must think like the suffragists, not the suffragettes. Remember that patriarchy conceded the vote to women when it showed inclination towards the greater good of society in the wars? Well then, feminism may (I hope) concede an uninterrupted male sphere to help abolish patriarchy when men are at least willing to work with them towards their current goals.

Patriarchy can only be brought down from the inside; man created it, and only man can end it and bring about the next revolutionary phase of our social history. This may take a few centuries yet. But too many men are in favour of it, it is in their best interests-and the minority who are not are pincered into submission.

We need the support of the moderate feminists; only they can persuade the rad-fems, or at very least build up the confidence of mod-fems for a balanced account of feminism in the balance sphere. Once we have more feminists, then and only then can we consider dismantling 'misandry', ironically a bi-product of patriarchy. And who are the best recruits to join the mod-fems? Guys like you and me.

Vive la revolution :P
(edited 9 years ago)

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Honestly I didn't read the main body of text because holy crap that's a lot of text and it could probably have been condensed down significantly. However I completely agree with the title.
Original post by SophieSmall
Honestly I didn't read the main body of text because holy crap that's a lot of text and it could probably have been condensed down significantly. However I completely agree with the title.


Same.
So your last thread was a troll?
Reply 4
At least you've left the fitness forums alone
Original post by SophieSmall
Honestly I didn't read the main body of text because holy crap that's a lot of text and it could probably have been condensed down significantly. However I completely agree with the title.


Same. Pretty annoying how any thread that's about male issues just gets invaded by feminist trolls insulting everyone and then locked/deleted/banned etc.
Original post by ChickenMadness
Same. Pretty annoying how any thread that's about male issues just gets invaded by feminist trolls insulting everyone and then locked/deleted/banned etc.


And vice versa to be fair. But yes the trolls and the ones who cannot fathom another's issues instead of their own for one damn moment annoy the crap out of me.
Reply 7
Original post by sherlockfan
So your last thread was a troll?


No, it was anxiety-induced and a little OCD, but the process helps me gauge men and women's reactions to these social conditions (which is of paramount importance for me to understand), even if I will eventually have to tone down the obsession with them for a more balanced life. :smile:
Reply 8
How the hell does your keyboard still work, Riku? I swear you've put out more text than News International in the last few days.
Reply 9
Original post by mrfletch
How the hell does your keyboard still work, Riku? I swear you've put out more text than News International in the last few days.


Lol I'm always like this :tongue: They had to give me extra time with exams because I refuse to ****ing stop writing. It's my perfectionist streak kicking in, among other things

This a very interesting and important subject to me, so I'm prepared to put in the time to learning about it and how everyone feels about it.
Riku stop preaching about patriarchy lmao. There is no big man telling feminists to shout at men and lock their forum threads about male domestic abuse and to ban the OP.
Original post by Riku
No, it was anxiety-induced and a little OCD, but the process helps me gauge men and women's reactions to these social conditions (which is of paramount importance for me to understand), even if I will eventually have to tone down the obsession with them for a more balanced life. :smile:


The process doesn't help you at all, you are very sensitive to peoples responses and it just makes you increasingly paranoid.
Whats more, its not of paramount importance. Go find something better to do with your time. If you are really interested then go and take gender studies or something. Dont rely on what people say on here.
/
Reply 12
Original post by sherlockfan
The process doesn't help you at all, you are very sensitive to peoples responses and it just makes you increasingly paranoid.
Whats more, its not of paramount importance. Go find something better to do with your time. If you are really interested then go and take gender studies or something. Dont rely on what people say on here.
/


It really is, it's through the process of examining these issues (in the most bizarre way possible) that I figure out why I feel I don't fit in, and why that's not necessarily a bad thing/my fault

Yes, sometimes, hence why I have yet to return to the Relationships forum. :tongue:
Reply 13
basically

agree with title

but ultimately

did not read lol
Original post by Riku
It really is, it's through the process of examining these issues (in the most bizarre way possible) that I figure out why I feel I don't fit in, and why that's not necessarily a bad thing/my fault

Yes, sometimes, hence why I have yet to return to the Relationships forum. :tongue:


If you are seriously going to rely on tsr to work out who you are, then you are a lost cause. Not that I expected you would listen to my advice as you never do.
When I am interested in a subject I read a book about it. I occasionally talk to people who may have valid opinions on the matter, if they are intelligent, older or have more experience. On here you are just talking to a bunch of teenagers. When you think about it most of the time you are probably talking to people a good few years younger than you.
Food for thought.
(edited 9 years ago)
tl;dr
Reply 16
Original post by SophieSmall
Honestly I didn't read the main body of text because holy crap that's a lot of text and it could probably have been condensed down significantly. However I completely agree with the title.


OK to sum up (although I'm sure you know already, and I'm not being sarcastic with this)

1) Patriarchy Hurts Men Too
2) What men call misandry is actually the back-lash of patriarchy, e.g. 'man up'-patriarchy defined what man is, who meets its criteria and who doesn't
3) Only men can dismantle patriarchy, since that social structure was created by men for men
4) As with any ideology, the most radical are the most vocal and militant. So, the public only see the extremist, radical feminist views and think 'yep that's feminism'. Plus that tends to be more entertaining, regardless of what is more socially just or balanced/accurate
5) The most radical feminists (misandrists, who I dislike, and I imagine most feminists have reservations to them) basically reject patriarchy's constraints on woman, while either ignoring or even supporting (for unknown reasons I can only deem to be vested interests) its constraints on men
6) Some women who are not self-identified as feminist still gain from its privileges while half-supporting patriarchy (the part which oppresses men). I believe this accounts for the majority of young women in my peer group, who grew up in a new wave of feminism, the 90s 'Girl Power' movement preceding popular radical feminism
7) Men cannot dismantle patriarchy at the present moment in time because too many men support it-they see it as a threat to their masculinity, their very identity to challenge it-as do too many women, as demonstrated above
8) Men who are against patriarchy, who have been abandoned by it or lost out because they couldn't reach its expectations of masculinity, are afraid to reject it. This is because they will lose the support of their fellow man, and (so it seems due to the popular views of feminism created by the rad-fems) feminism is against them. Out of the fire and into the frying pan, patriarchy is the lesser of two evils to these men
9) Rad-fems cannot be reasoned with through men, because in rad-fem's eyes men are the enemy and de facto supporters of patriarchy. Only the argument of fellow women (and ideally fellow women feminists) can hold weight in a rad-fem's eyes
10) But in a moderate feminist's eyes patriarchy is the true enemy, and a man against patriarchy (i.e. a male feminist) can be an ally. Therefore, mod-fems can be reasoned with through men
11) If men can trust the mod-fems-and realise that Patriarchy Hurts Men Too-feminism will gain more male feminists
12) Through gaining the support of the mod-fems, the rad-fems can be either reasoned with and moderated, or balanced in the public sphere by mod-fems; not silenced since free speech, but perhaps this will help popular views to change
13) By changing the popular view of what feminism is, all feminists have a better chance of dismantling patriarchy and breaking the cycle! :smile:


That is really as succinct as I can make it. It's an elaborate hypothesis, I don't now whether you feel it is even remotely plausible.
Reply 17
Original post by sherlockfan
If you are seriously going to rely on tsr to work out who you are, then you are a lost cause. Not that I expected you would listen to my advice as you never do.
When I am interested in a subject I read a book about it. I occasionally talk to people who may have valid opinions on the matter, if they are intelligent, older or have more experience. On here you are just talking to a bunch of teenagers. When you think about it most of the time you are probably talking to people a good few years younger than you.
Food for thought.


Whoa, that's not true! I do listen to you! I just get over-excited sometimes...

The majority of books about feminism will explain what I already know, about how patriarchy oppresses women. But these are issues that I have been aware of for a long time. It was only in, perhaps, the past year or so that I realised that patriarchy oppresses men too. I have read non-scientific articles on the subject, and studied this briefly as part of my course too. I have leisurely reading to do in my spare time, and other hobbies (for example band practice today, but that's another thread…)

Not everyone here is a teenager, for examples yourself :tongue: and most people on here are reasonably intelligent, especially those posting in the Society section.
Original post by Riku
OK to sum up (although I'm sure you know already, and I'm not being sarcastic with this)

1) Patriarchy Hurts Men Too I guess
2) What men call misandry is actually the back-lash of patriarchy, e.g. 'man up'-patriarchy defined what man is, who meets its criteria and who doesn't If you say so, not really thought about it
3) Only men can dismantle patriarchy, since that social structure was created by men for men Disagree both men and women can change how we view eachother and treat eachother
4) As with any ideology, the most radical are the most vocal and militant. So, the public only see the extremist, radical feminist views and think 'yep that's feminism'. Plus that tends to be more entertaining, regardless of what is more socially just or balanced/accurate True
5) The most radical feminists (misandrists, who I dislike, and I imagine most feminists have reservations to them) basically reject patriarchy's constraints on woman, while either ignoring or even supporting (for unknown reasons I can only deem to be vested interests) its constraints on men Try not to pay attention to radical crap to be honest but sounds abot right for radicals
6) Some women who are not self-identified as feminist still gain from its privileges while half-supporting patriarchy (the part which oppresses men). I believe this accounts for the majority of young women in my peer group, who grew up in a new wave of feminism, the 90s 'Girl Power' movement preceding popular radical feminism Like what?
7) Men cannot dismantle patriarchy at the present moment in time because too many men support it-they see it as a threat to their masculinity, their very identity to challenge it-as do too many women, as demonstrated above No idea not a man, so don't know how men feel
8) Men who are against patriarchy, who have been abandoned by it or lost out because they couldn't reach its expectations of masculinity, are afraid to reject it. This is because they will lose the support of their fellow man, and (so it seems due to the popular views of feminism created by the rad-fems) feminism is against them. Out of the fire and into the frying pan, patriarchy is the lesser of two evils to these men Again no idea
9) Rad-fems cannot be reasoned with through men, because in rad-fem's eyes men are the enemy and de facto supporters of patriarchy. Only the argument of fellow women (and ideally fellow women feminists) can hold weight in a rad-fem's eyes Not sure, radicals probably won't listen to anyone
10) But in a moderate feminist's eyes patriarchy is the true enemy, and a man against patriarchy (i.e. a male feminist) can be an ally. Therefore, mod-fems can be reasoned with through men I guess, but why do mod-fems need to be reasoned with?
11) If men can trust the mod-fems-and realise that Patriarchy Hurts Men Too-feminism will gain more male feminists This is true
12) Through gaining the support of the mod-fems, the rad-fems can be either reasoned with and moderated, or balanced in the public sphere by mod-fems; not silenced since free speech, but perhaps this will help popular views to change No matter the cause there will always be radicals
13) By changing the popular view of what feminism is, all feminists have a better chance of dismantling patriarchy and breaking the cycle! :smile: Would be easier if the term feminism was just done away with to be honest and those who actually support equally rights and freedoms should adopt the term egalitarian. I think the word feminism is too far gone, it has to much hate against it.

That is really as succinct as I can make it. It's an elaborate hypothesis, I don't now whether you feel it is even remotely plausible.


thanks. Much easier to read.
Original post by Riku
Whoa, that's not true! I do listen to you! I just get over-excited sometimes...

The majority of books about feminism will explain what I already know, about how patriarchy oppresses women. But these are issues that I have been aware of for a long time. It was only in, perhaps, the past year or so that I realised that patriarchy oppresses men too. I have read non-scientific articles on the subject, and studied this briefly as part of my course too. I have leisurely reading to do in my spare time, and other hobbies (for example band practice today, but that's another thread…)

Not everyone here is a teenager, for examples yourself :tongue: and most people on here are reasonably intelligent, especially those posting in the Society section.

Reasonably intelligent? Really? Because from what ive seen most users have a pretty backwards view towards feminism and thats not going to be representative of the whole population, just a minority of sexually frustrated teenage boys.

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