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English votes for English laws: constitutional problems

The hot topic following the conclusion of the referendum on Scottish independence is proposals for addressing England being left out of the devolution framework. This has led to some to call for either an English Parliament, separate from Westminster, or some kind of minimalist system in the House of Commons, restricting the right of non-English MPs voting on English matters.

This latter idea may end up being adopted. I want to urge caution though; presuming that the majority of the English (and the others) wish to preserve this ancient Union, it has to be said that English votes for English laws (hereafter abbreviated to EV4EL) could risk the Union collapsing for good.

What follows are a series of questions and scenarios that such a regime could (or would) encounter. For such a proposal as EV4EL to be practical and demonstrably good for the Union and for England, these would need answering. It's simply not sufficient for the answer to be 'It's wrong for Scots to vote on English matters', as such an answer does not address the real constitutional problems EV4EL brings up.

If your goal is to achieve English independence, this thread's not for you. You'll not care what EV4EL does to the Union anyway.

Here goes:

1) What happens if a government that controls the UK House of Commons does not have a majority in the English House of Commons, and loses a major important vote, say on the Budget?

2) How would the government be organised between a UK-majority and an English minority government? Would they stay the same or change depending on the issue?

3) What would be the function of Scots MPs when no UK-related matters are before Parliament? Isn't there a risk that their light business will become a source of criticism that they cannot help; won't it highlight the remoteness of Westminster from Scotland further, and potentially make Scots less wedded to the Union?

4) Say a party wins a majority in the UK but a minority in England; they campaigned in England for a particular policy, but lost that vote. Suppose they therefore 'coalesce' on English matters with a third party, but otherwise govern alone, in order to get that policy (or something like it) secured. This would in essence mean near-permanent coalition governments even when the UK government has a majority. How would that pan out?

5) Could Scots still become Ministers for UK positions if they involve English-only affairs; for example, the Home Secretary who controls immigration policy and policing?

6) What happens if England alone adopts a course of action opposed by the Union and the other three countries? Given its enormous size, and the fact we are likely to retain the Barnett Formula, its decision would inescapably impact them, as it impacts on their block grants, but also their economies.

It may well be that these questions can be reasonably answered to the benefit of England and the Union; but they are not questions that can be dismissed with cries for justice to the English. If we want to preserve the Union, they must be answered.

Food for thought, in any case.
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You make some excellent points, I'm too tired to give a response that would do them justice, but will throw this out there. Maybe we need more assemblies? London is more populous than Scotland and much more so than Wales and NI, the latter three being countries, all four are endowed with an "assembly" for all intents and purposes. This means that nearly 1/3 of the UK is already under the jurisdiction of a separate legislature and executive. Why not provide more and decentralise?

Ideally, the Scottish Parliament wouldn't have as much power as it does. It'd be much better if power over issues was shared between Westminster and the relevant assembly, instead of near enough total devolution on certain issues. That's what you have in federal systems, shared jurisdiction and comity.
Reply 3
Original post by 122025278
You make some excellent points, I'm too tired to give a response that would do them justice, but will throw this out there. Maybe we need more assemblies? London is more populous than Scotland and much more so than Wales and NI, the latter three being countries, all four are endowed with an "assembly" for all intents and purposes. This means that nearly 1/3 of the UK is already under the jurisdiction of a separate legislature and executive. Why not provide more and decentralise?

Ideally, the Scottish Parliament wouldn't have as much power as it does. It'd be much better if power over issues was shared between Westminster and the relevant assembly, instead of near enough total devolution on certain issues. That's what you have in federal systems, shared jurisdiction and comity.


I would be in favour of such a proposal but they don't seem very popular, at least for the moment. Plus the advocates for such a proposal seem to be rather on the back foot compared to advocates of EV4EL.

The whole situation is a horrid mess.
Original post by gladders
The hot topic following the conclusion of the referendum on Scottish independence is proposals for addressing England being left out of the devolution framework. This has led to some to call for either an English Parliament, separate from Westminster, or some kind of minimalist system in the House of Commons, restricting the right of non-English MPs voting on English matters.

This latter idea may end up being adopted. I want to urge caution though; presuming that the majority of the English (and the others) wish to preserve this ancient Union, it has to be said that English votes for English laws (hereafter abbreviated to EV4EL) could risk the Union collapsing for good.

What follows are a series of questions and scenarios that such a regime could (or would) encounter. For such a proposal as EV4EL to be practical and demonstrably good for the Union and for England, these would need answering. It's simply not sufficient for the answer to be 'It's wrong for Scots to vote on English matters', as such an answer does not address the real constitutional problems EV4EL brings up.

If your goal is to achieve English independence, this thread's not for you. You'll not care what EV4EL does to the Union anyway.

Here goes:

1) What happens if a government that controls the UK House of Commons does not have a majority in the English House of Commons, and loses a major important vote, say on the Budget?


If you de-construct this; the key budget votes are UK matters. If they were not passed the government falls as today. If you take the Scottish example, whilst the Scottish Parliament has to right (not yet exercised) to vary income tax, the right to levy income tax rests with the UK Parliament and has to be renewed annually.


2) How would the government be organised between a UK-majority and an English minority government? Would they stay the same or change depending on the issue?


This is the heart of the issue. Is there to be a separate English executive?


3) What would be the function of Scots MPs when no UK-related matters are before Parliament? Isn't there a risk that their light business will become a source of criticism that they cannot help; won't it highlight the remoteness of Westminster from Scotland further, and potentially make Scots less wedded to the Union?


That has been the case with NI for most of the period since 1922.

4) Say a party wins a majority in the UK but a minority in England; they campaigned in England for a particular policy, but lost that vote. Suppose they therefore 'coalesce' on English matters with a third party, but otherwise govern alone, in order to get that policy (or something like it) secured. This would in essence mean near-permanent coalition governments even when the UK government has a majority. How would that pan out?


It would pan out a lot better than many of the alternatives.

5) Could Scots still become Ministers for UK positions if they involve English-only affairs; for example, the Home Secretary who controls immigration policy and policing?


That is back to the separate English executive question.

6) What happens if England alone adopts a course of action opposed by the Union and the other three countries? Given its enormous size, and the fact we are likely to retain the Barnett Formula, its decision would inescapably impact them, as it impacts on their block grants, but also their economies.


The same is true for all parts of the UK. Radically different policies would have a major impact. For example, say Scotland does drop the basic rate of income tax by 3p in the pound, that would have a huge impact on rUK.

You haven't really hit on some of the key problems that the absence of an English executive and Assembly would cause?

Who controls the Commons agenda? The opposition have a carefully limited about of time to promote what they want to talk about. The rest of the time is under government control. The control of time is key to the ability to pass legislation.

What happens about the thousands of sets of Regulations that government introduces but Parliament can theoretically block ever year? What happens if the government wants to introduce The Absolute Ground for Possession for Anti-social Behaviour (Review Procedure) (England) Regulations 2014 but a majority of English MPs don't like them. What happens if that happens to hundreds of sets of Regulations ever year? Government is hardly government if it can't do anything.

What happens if English MPs pass a private members' bill that is contrary to UK government policy? Does the PM advise (ie order) the Queen to refuse Royal assent. The US Congress passes many laws that the President vetoes.

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