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Germany abolishes all tuition fees!

http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/22027/1/germany-scraps-tuition-fees-for-all-universities

So the Germans have just stopped charging for education full stop declaring it 'socially unjust'. What does TSR think? Could we reverse these charges in the UK?

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Reply 1

perfectsymbology

I think if you get a job earning over £22,000 or whatever it is then you SHOULD pay back tuition fees personally.

Reply 2

HokeyWolf

Original post by cosmin_trg

Great Idea! Not sure how we could do it in the UK now. Would make it quite unfair on those who have amassed great debt since they were introduced.

Reply 3

CJKay

How the hell are they affording that?

Economically, we cannot afford to just abolish tuition fees - somebody has to pay for it, and the country just does not make enough to fund it.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 4

tengentoppa

So now in Germany rather than the people who are going to university paying for that service, the whole country is paying for it.

That seems pretty "socially unjust" to me. Why can't people pay for their own investments.

German academics already complain about a lack of funding, this will not be welcome news to them.

Reply 5

Daftpunker

Please do correct me if I'm wrong but the only European countries (excluding Scotland) that currently provide free University are Finland, Ireland and Greece. Finland tax their citizens as much as 70% I beleive, Greece and Ireland...well their economy is the worlds envy!

Germany - how will they afford it will see...

On the other hand the USA a first world country...if you fall seriously ill and can't afford medication - you will die. Tough.

Just looking at it from the other side of the coin.

It would be socially unjust in my opionion for taxes to be raised (I assume that would happen if tuition fees were abolished in the UK) so students can go to uni for free when so many (not the majority but a lot) go to university just for a glorified drinking competition and to kill 3 years as apposed to fulfilling their ambition for a potential career.

Reply 6

Comus

Original post by tengentoppa

Because you benefit from being in a society where the population is generally well educated?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7

Observatory

Germany also still has the tripartite (i.e. grammar school) system and if you don't go to a grammar school you can't sit the exam required to go to university. This limits the number of places needed and keeps tax-funded higher education affordable.

You pay your money and take your choice (or not!).

Reply 8

Daftpunker

Original post by Comus

Because you benefit from being in a society where the populace is well educated?

50-55% of school leavers are now going to uni. How many jobs/functions in soceity does the person need a degree to perform? 20% - 25% at most?

Why should everyone else pick up the bill when (if you look at it like this) over half the people going to uni do not need a degree?

Reply 9

Comus

Original post by Daftpunker

Actually the 50% figure is something of a myth - in the same article you will also notice that 26% of jobs explicitly require a degree.

Reply 10

Daftpunker

Actually the 50% figure is something of a myth - in the same article you will also notice that 26% of jobs explicitly require a degree.

There are different sources everywhere for these things (I'm not dimissing yours and thank you for bringing it to my attention). Heres something from the BBC site - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25432377 they claim that 40% of students will experience some form of higher education by the age of 19. The college I went to in Sussex claimed 65% of students go on to university.

Who knows.

26% - ok I did say 25% at most!

My point does remain though. I will ask you though - do you think everybody that has a degree now actually needs it - what percentage don't. If this is as high as (as I think) 50% - do you think its right that the tax-payer should fund everyones education?

Reply 11

tengentoppa

Original post by Comus

Because you benefit from being in a society where the population is generally well educated?

Do I? The number of people going to uni is higher than the number of graduate jobs available. Why would I benefit from an over-qualified work force? Why should a school leaver pay for his classmates to attend university?

If you want a service then you should pay for it yourself. A graduate will always be the main beneficiary of a degree. And what of all the people who leave the UK once they graduate? Their subsidised education isn't going to help our society if they are in Singapore.

Reply 12

Comus

Original post by tengentoppa

If you want a service then you should pay for it yourself.

And would you apply this principle to things such as the emergency services, or just on this particular issue?

Original post by Daftpunker

Bear in mind that higher education also includes vocational qualifications and apprenticeships at level 4 and above.

Original post by Daftpunker

My point does remain though. I will ask you though - do you think everybody that has a degree now actually needs it - what percentage don't. If this is as high as (as I think) 50% - do you think its right that the tax-payer should fund everyones education?

But how do you decide who 'needs' it? And how do we predict the job markets of the future (given that increasingly menial jobs are being automated)? How do we instigate fees in a way that won't impede social mobility (though I wouldn't be opposed to a finite graduate tax)? Where do we draw the line regarding taxpayer funding of education?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 13

username234673

Today is free education for incestuous Germans Day!

:party:

Reply 14

Daftpunker

And would you apply this principle to things such as the emergency services, or just on this particular issue?

Overall I think the UK (although not perfect) does more or less get things right for its citizens regarding what is free (at least tax payers provided) and what is not.

As said Ireland, Greece and Finland to my knowledge now are the only countries until now that provided free higher education through university. Ireland and Greece had to bailed out by the EU a few years ago and Finland has the highest tax rate in the Europe.

Reply 15

Huskaris

I benefit (supposedly) from going to university because I am more employable and with higher earnings.

The government benefits because they get more taxes as a consequence, plus a more educated society.

I think I should pay some, and the government should pay some...

Simple as that.

The world does not owe us all a free lunch, University tuition is a hard thing for many to grasp because for most kids its the first thing they have ever actually paid for.

Reply 16

tengentoppa

Original post by Comus

http://www.epi.org/publication/states-education-productivity-growth-foundations/
In addition, doctors are graduates, lawyers are graduates, teachers are graduates - do you not think that you benefit from having these specialists available to you?
I also benefit from having plumbers and electricians available to me, but I don't want to pay for their training either. It's your career, and you should be the one investing in it. Besides, it's not like doctors, lawyers etc. work for free. I pay for their service, why should I pay for their training as well?
And would you apply this principle to things such as the emergency services, or just on this particular issue
That's different. Everyone contributes to national healthcare and everyone gets treatment as a result. With regards to university education, now in Germany everyone will contribute to tuition fees but not everyone will go to university. That is the issue.

^ See above.

Reply 17

tengentoppa

Original post by Huskaris

I think that idea really needs to be driven home in our society. Far too many people have the expectation that the government should provide.

Reply 18

Huskaris

Original post by tengentoppa

I think that idea really needs to be driven home in our society. Far too many people have the expectation that the government should provide.

I couldn't agree more. Our generation expects everything to be given to them, for free. It's never our fault when it goes wrong either, always someone elses. Why do you think so many young people hate the government? Because it's a scape goat.

Left wing kids who are doing **** hate the government.

Right wing kids who are doing **** hate immigrants.

Simple.

Reply 19

Jibola240

Original post by Daftpunker

I think in the US they have emergency care if you are very ill and can't pay immediately, it's no NHS. But it's the bare minimum. There's Medicare and others too which are government funded, but that's for only certain sectors of society.