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"Scrap A Levels or Britain will be stuck with historians who can't do maths"

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Original post by the bear
For instance i have immense trouble getting Kings and Queens questions right on University Challenge... i usually end up guessing :

really really early... Ethelred the Unready

middle mediaeval... Richard III, no II , no The Black Prince AAAAAAAARGH

other mediaeval... Henry IV...no Edward V...AAAAAAAAAARGH

a bit later... Henry VII... no Good Queen Bess... no that big fat one AAAAAAAAARGH

you see i have a genuine condition which precludes giving accurate answers...

The difference being people with Dyscalculia actually have a problem. And do really struggle with everyday maths, it has to been learned very mechanically(Is this the right word?). It's not just finding something slightly difficult.

(I wont be able to reply for awhile, so if anyone wants to debate what i have said just debunk the points and blah blah, I'm in class currently.).
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by the bear
For instance i have immense trouble getting Kings and Queens questions right on University Challenge... i usually end up guessing :

really really early... Ethelred the Unready

middle mediaeval... Richard III, no II , no The Black Prince AAAAAAAARGH

other mediaeval... Henry IV...no Edward V...AAAAAAAAAARGH

a bit later... Henry VII... no Good Queen Bess... no that big fat one AAAAAAAAARGH

you see i have a genuine condition which precludes giving accurate answers...


This is a clear-cut case of hysteria right here.

Original post by the bear
How about Datophobia ?


History isn't to do much with remembering dates, though :holmes:
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
This is a clear-cut case of hysteria right here.



History isn't to do much with remembering dates, though :holmes:


can i get help on the NHS ? do i need an operation ?
Original post by ConsiderScience
Historicula? Or does that sound to much like an std?


Sounds awful :puke: Sounds like boils or something.
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
Sounds awful :puke: Sounds like boils or something.

Well I'm not a disorder namer >_< (Although that's be a weird job).
You name it then! Lol :P
Original post by the bear
can i get help on the NHS ? do i need an operation ?


They will probably prescribe you desensitisation therapy, starting with something gentle like Time Team and gradually working up until you feel confident enough to cope with University Challenge :yy:
Interesting topic. I was reading about the French bac system recently, which seems to be a good balance between the specialisation and jack of all trades arguments. Basically, you study everything up to about AS level (the equivalents aren't precise), after which you specialise, taking with courses in your specialisation (3 basic ones: STEM, social sciences and Arts, Lit, Languages) which count for more. So you still get to study a bit of everything, but instead of being focused on, say, English, History, Goegraphy at A level, you'll have a relatively good knowledge of everything and an in-depth knowledge of, say, History, Geography, Economics, Statistics and Philisophy (if you do the Soc Sci route). Seems like a nice balance to me. I know the IB is kinda similar too: it would be interesting to hear someone who's been through that system's thoughts.

Original post by Helen_in_Ireland
In Ireland we have the Leaving Certificate in which a student takes at least seven subjects, maybe more if their school allows. There are four compulsory subjects (English Maths, Irish, and a language) and three optional. My daughter took History, Biology and Economics as her optionals.

The subjects can be studied and/or examined at two levels, Higher and Ordinary, and each level has a range of grades and marks assigned to it for use when applying to university. For instance an 'A1' grade at Higher level will give 100points but at Ordinary level will be given only 60 points. The points are counted for the top six subjects examined.

Because there are more subjects they are not studied to the same depth as A levels. Thus for UCAS purposes each LC subject is regarded as 2/3 of an A level, with appropriate UCAS points conversion as well.

The Leaving Cert allows a student to study a wide range of subjects up to university level without feeling confined,and so gives a greater leeway in choosing what to study at degree level.


I have a good friend who went through the Irish system who disliked it for being too broad. From what I remember, the Higher Level/Ordinary level distinction didn't really matter, as anyone with serious ambitions, or to get into any top course, did all Higher Level anyway; the subjects you can study are often restricted by limited school funding and nothing is in-depth enough, since the best way to get good marks is the rote learn, even in essay subjects such as History or English, because questions are so predictable and there are national outcries if the exams don't match what was widely predicted to come up. Basically, he said he had to re-learn everything about his subject once he got to uni, which isn't a good way to teach.
No. Maths at GCSE level is all the maths an average person will need. I recognise its usefulness but it's such a pain in the neck, I would have hated life so much if I had been made to take it at AS.
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
They will probably prescribe you desensitisation therapy, starting with something gentle like Time Team and gradually working up until you feel confident enough to cope with University Challenge :yy:


sorry i should have mentioned that i have a phobia of patronising left wing historical revisionists... so cannot possibly watch T*me T**m
Original post by the bear
sorry i should have mentioned that i have a phobia of patronising left wing historical revisionists... so cannot possibly watch T*me T**m


Tony Robinson isn't patronising :frown:
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
Tony Robinson isn't patronising :frown:


you said his name

:cry2:
:creep:
I don't really agree with this.

If people lack key skills it's often because they did poorly at GCSE, not because they didn't take that subject at A level as well.

I got a U in maths for AS level and dropped it the next year but my GCSE maths A/A* (can't remember exactly but it's one of the two) at GCSE is good enough and that's all the maths skills I'm going to need. Basic maths is the main problem, not more complex A level stuff like calculus.

Not everyone wants to do stuff like maths past GCSE, it's great that people can drop it if they want. If I had to do maths all the way through A level I would have struggled. As a result I would have probably done worse in other subjects which are actually relevant to what I wanted to do after A levels.
rather be jack of all trades master of none than jack of one trade master of none
Original post by DErasmus
rather be jack of all trades master of none than jack of one trade master of none


A fair point.
Can't stand stem snobs
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
I've got a history degree, and I can't do maths. :frown:

Should the UK move away from A Levels because they specialise too early, or is there an advantage to only focusing on a few subjects?

Read the article here.


I think a bigger problem is, rather than people specialising too early, is that the choices people make at A-levels are misguided.

People are not given enough advice and dare I say it enough of a challenge to their initial choices to help them to fully appreciate what their choice means for their future. This results in the wrong choices, exclusions from certain careers, too little breadth or too many subjects perceived as 'easy' options.

We should also encourage more people to consider doing one less subject to A2, but instead two AS levels to get a wider range of subjects. So maybe three subjects to A2 and on to AS. Though I'm not sure how changes to A-levels could impact on this and prevent people doing subjects only to AS.
Reply 56
Avatar for Wattsy
Wattsy
19
GCSE maths is more than most people will ever use in daily life. I doubt I'm ever going to need knowledge of cubic equations or integration. I need to be able to understand. I'm a law student, as long as I can pass my accounts exam, understand percentages and financial information as well as do basic maths I'll be pretty much fine. I can do stopping distance equations and other formulaic things too but that's probably never going to be my job.
Original post by ellie.rew



I have a good friend who went through the Irish system who disliked it for being too broad. From what I remember, the Higher Level/Ordinary level distinction didn't really matter, as anyone with serious ambitions, or to get into any top course, did all Higher Level anyway; the subjects you can study are often restricted by limited school funding and nothing is in-depth enough, since the best way to get good marks is the rote learn, even in essay subjects such as History or English, because questions are so predictable and there are national outcries if the exams don't match what was widely predicted to come up. Basically, he said he had to re-learn everything about his subject once he got to uni, which isn't a good way to teach.



Yes, the problems that you state are very true. The Irish curriculum is solidly based on the strong classic subjects, there is little or no option to do subjects like film studies or sociology.

There is also a strong pressure to do well in the exams through rote learning which can actually disadvantage the stronger student. When my daughter did her Junior Certificate mocks (GCSE equivalent) she was stunned to get a C grade in English, one of her strongest subjects. On review of her paper her English master determined that because she had taken a less literal but valid approach to an essay subject, it had been marked down by the external examiner because they were not expecting such a variant approach - it did not conform to the norm (The teacher would have given her an A!)

This year some of the subjects have tried to vary the questions and marking schemes because of the criticism. The system is too rigid in many ways :s-smilie:

I do like the approach suggested by one commentator here, where a wider number of subjects be studied to AS level (in the UK) and to specialise for the final year.
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
But are these routes considered on an equal footing with A Levels? :holmes:



Well, my HND is Level 4/5, whereas A Levels are Level 3. I think access courses are Level 3.

Or if you're talking about whether they're as respected as A Levels, then I suppose it depends on the uni and the employer/industry.
Original post by Puddles the Monkey
I've got a history degree, and I can't do maths. :frown:

Should the UK move away from A Levels because they specialise too early, or is there an advantage to only focusing on a few subjects?

Read the article here.


However what are now A levels go back to the Higher School Certificate in 1918. That means that for most of the last 100 years the pattern of subjects studied at 16-18 levels have been the same.

Either you have to say that English education has been too narrow for a century or that something (what?) has changed.

This article fails to answer this question and seems to imply that the innumerate historian is something new without saying what has changed to bring it about.

There is an answer to the question, and that is the decline in the content (and difficulty) of 16+ examinations. A GCSE is easier and narrower than an O level and the best evidence of this (apart from looking at past papers) is the increase in the number of subjects taken by bright pupils over the last 30 years. Bright pupils who are not geniuses, regularly take a number of subjects at GCSE that would have got them written up in the Daily Express 30 years ago.

As a result someone with a good GCSE in a subject knows less about that subject than someone who took an O level in it.

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